When did John the Baptist Get saved?

[Hope of Glory]

This is a tired old argument about "The word 'rapture' isn't in the Bible!"

Nor are many liturgical words that we use daily.

Rapture is from 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

"Caught up" is a second, future, passive, indicative of "harpazO", and it literally to seize or carry off, like the Latin word "rapio", from which we get the word "rapture".

Here is a list of all the verses that contain this same word:

MAT 11: 12, MAT 12: 29, MAT 13: 19*, JON 6: 15, JON 10: 12, JON 10: 28, JON 10: 29, ACT 8: 39, ACT 23: 10, 2CO 12: 2, 2CO 12: 4, 1TH 4: 17, JUD 1: 23, REV 12: 5

Now, don't expect me to do your homework for you all the time, young man!

 

[Salamander]

Hope, thank you, you beat me to the punch.

I suppose you were calling Bro B the young man?

 

[Brother Bob]

I am much older than you are HoG most likely. And I have read all those Scriptures and none say Rapture. So do pull a high road on me for Rapture is something fellows like you have added.

We old Baptist call it the Resurrection!!!

 

[Brother Bob]

Sal; Where is indwelt in the Scriptues also being you are teaching me? So far the score is 0 on your part.

Also, I have to go to church again but will continue when I return.

Please do some studying while I am gone and please read about the souls under the altar of God while you are at it. Also a number that no man could number clothed in white in Heaven. As Patton said; I Shall Return!!!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Salamander:
Being filled is not indwelt.

The word indwelt means to exist within. Are you saying that there's a way to be filled with the Spirit without the Spirit existing in you? That would be a pretty neat trick.

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:


Also, I have to go to church again but will continue when I return.

As Patton said; I Shall Return!!!

Brother Bob---ummmmmm---it kinda sorta wasn't Patton who made that quote---it was General MacArthur

On the other hand---Patton "believed" he returned---he believed he was some sort of Roman Centurian---or soldier--or some other "yahoo" in power---not exactly a Ceasar----not exactly a Emperior---just some fella who had an urge to squash heads---which gave Patton his desire to squash all of the "Krauts" he came in contact with!!

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by blackbird:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
I don't think "John's Old body" will be resurrected, I think it will stay in the "dust".

God made man from dust, then told satan he would eat dust,

"Flesh" is Satan's "bread of life" in the same sense Jesus's body is our "Bread of life".

Fasting isn't too starve the flesh of food, but of fulfilling it sinful desires, a spiritual starving that in turn, starve Satan.

All flesh is given to Satan, that's why it dies, flesh doesn't mean anything to God, only the soul.

So---you deny a future physical resurrection---the old raised to new??

And give me some scripture that says that "all flesh is given to Satan"

And give me some scripture that says that "flesh doesn't mean anything to God, only the soul"---s

And then show me where in the Bible that the flesh is Satan's "Bread of life"

Sounds a bit "gnostic", and LDSish, and reeks of Word of Faith false doctrine---not to mention a little "leaven" pinched in from the JW's
Blackbird </font>[/QUOTE]Mr 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Ya'll seem to be about as ignorant of what Jesus meant in these words as the Jew/disciples were.

We don't "literally" eat flesh, drink blood, but it's by Jesus's "flesh and blood" we have the "Spiritual Bread" to sustain a "Spiritual life, eternal life,

Meat/tater sustain the life of the flesh, Jesus's "parable" of his flesh/blood is symbolic of food for the spirit/soul.

and so is giving Satan "Dust" (flesh) to eat.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,(flesh)

Ge 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Want to take a guess as to what happen to Satan when the New Earth is created and there's no more "flesh to eat", He dies, in hell along with all the others who didn't have any "Spiritual bread/food".

Elijah physically went to heaven in a whirlwind, that same Elijah is coming back as one of the two witnesses during the trib, to be killed "AGAIN" and resurrected/rapture to Heaven,

Does Eliajh have "TWO SOULS", one to occupy his original body and the resurrected body of John the Baptist????

When you get down into the "meat of the word", you'll find the bible to be quite different than what most have read/understood.

 

[Brother Bob]

blackbird; Thanks I made a mistake if was MacArthur. Patton just slapped everyone's face.

 

[blackbird]

Brother---when I get down into the "meat of the word"----I don't see what you see!!

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
blackbird; Thanks I made a mistake if was MacArthur. Patton just slapped everyone's face.

Patton had a "nasty" mouth---a mind that was always in the gutter---and almost got his "can" fired for the little "slappin'" incident. The Philipinos believed that MacArthur "jipped" them when he left!!

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes he surely did.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Salamander
You obviously don't know the difference between Paradise/Abraham's Bosom and Heaven.

I know you didn't say this to me, but wouldn't you agree, Salamander, that this is not agreed on by all Christians. There is a lot of disagreement on Paradise, where it is, Paradise vs. heaven, etc. I don't think the Bible is that clear on it.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by blackbird:
Brother---when I get down into the "meat of the word"----I don't see what you see!!

I'm not surprised, few do.

but the few that do, have a new appreciations for the scriptures and the things that can be kept hid until revealed, even when they have been reading/studying/preaching 55 years.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I know you didn't say this to me, but wouldn't you agree, Salamander, that this is not agreed on by all Christians. There is a lot of disagreement on Paradise, where it is, Paradise vs. heaven, etc. I don't think the Bible is that clear on it.

I don't think so, either. I've heard people teach on this topic and they sound as if they have everything totally sorted out down to the last detail. I don't recall any of the details, but it's as specific as if they said, "When people died up to such-and-such date, their spirits remained in the graves and they are still there now. Everyone (saved) who dies during period X goes to paradise, including those who die today. Everyone (saved) who dies after period X will go to heaven. Those people in paradise will then go to heaven, too. But people Y will wait in their graves until the next movie in the Star Wars series comes out on DVD, and so on..."

How they think they get all this from the Bible is something I can't even begin to fathom.

 

[Hope of Glory]

"Rapture" (caught up) and "resurrection" are two entirely different things. I generally don't use the word "rapture", because transporting someone from one place to another (usually with heaven in mind) is only a minor definition of the word. (I also don't use "mansion" very often, since it never appears in the Bible, either.) But, whether you use "caught up" or "rapture", in modern English, it means the same thing.

But, etymologically, it's from an obsolete French word that means "abduction", or "carrying off", from rapt, which means "carried away", which is from Old French "rat", which is from Latin "raptus", which means precisely what the Greek "caught up" means.

Perhaps we should all make it a point to use "caught up" from now on, so we don't offend Brother Bob.

(BTW, I know you're older than I am, but I was using my teacher's voice...)

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Mr 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

So what do these verses have to say when each one is taken in its context? It is a shame to quote a string of verses without giving any plausible explanation. You only post them in an order to make the reader think that they teach a certain doctrine when in reality don't. It is like the woman who thought she could find the Lord's will by turning at random to various passages in the Bible. In order she turned to:

1. Judas went out and hanged himself.
2. Go and do thou likewise.
3. Whatsoever thou doest, do quickly.

You can put together a doctrine in the same way that lady found the will of God In fact you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say. It even says in Psalm 14:1 that "there is no God."

So in Mark 14:22-24, at the Last Supper Jesus institutes a memorial. The bread and wine are for us to remember his death: his body and blood that was sacrificed on the cross. We do that every time we celebrate the Lord's Table. It is a memorial. We do not believe in the heresy of transubstantiation.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

This is in the context of Jesus being the living bread, even better than the manna that came down from heaven to feed the Israelites. If they would partake of Him, believe on Him they would have eternal life. The emphasis is believing in Him. The emphasis on the flesh and blood is purely symbolic.
The conversation starts here, and these are the key verses:

John 6:47-48 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.

Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

The entire passage speaks of Jesus claiming to be the bread of life. Believing in Christ as the only way to heaven was difficult for the Jews. Believing that he was greater than Moses or Abraham was difficult for the Jews. They did not easily accept the claims of Christ. They understood what he was saying. He was claiming to be God.

Ya'll seem to be about as ignorant of what Jesus meant in these words as the Jew/disciples were.

We don't "literally" eat flesh, drink blood, but it's by Jesus's "flesh and blood" we have the "Spiritual Bread" to sustain a "Spiritual life, eternal life,

Jesus blood was shed on the cross for the remission of our sins.
"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins."
His body was sacrificied for us, once and for all. There is no need of any other sacrifice.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

His body was once sacrifice for sin. His blood was once shed for sins. The elements of the Lord's Table are taken only in remembrance of that one sacifice.

Meat/tater sustain the life of the flesh, Jesus's "parable" of his flesh/blood is symbolic of food for the spirit/soul.

You are not even making any sense here. That which is food for our spirit is the Word of God.

and so is giving Satan "Dust" (flesh) to eat.

What kind of heresy are you advocating here? Like I said you can make the Bible say anything that you want if you try hard enough. Since when does dust equal flesh in the Bible?

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,(flesh)

Ge 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Want to take a guess as to what happen to Satan when the New Earth is created and there's no more "flesh to eat", He dies, in hell along with all the others who didn't have any "Spiritual bread/food".

Just like the woman trying to find God's will--stringing a line of verses together. Except this time you are doing it purposely trying to prove some pre-conceived ideology by putting together a string of verses all taken out of their context.
The dust of the ground in no way equals the flesh.
The Bible does not teach that Satan will die. It teaches just the opposite; that he will suffer in the lake of fire forever and ever:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Elijah physically went to heaven in a whirlwind, that same Elijah is coming back as one of the two witnesses during the trib, to be killed "AGAIN" and resurrected/rapture to Heaven,

Does Eliajh have "TWO SOULS", one to occupy his original body and the resurrected body of John the Baptist????

Understand what the resurrection is all about. The resurrection always refers to the body--always. The spirit never dies. It will either go to heaven or hell. It never dies. Elijah didn't have two souls, only one. He had a glorified body that had been resurrected. In some way that is unexplained to us God allowed that body to either die again or just to appear or seem to be dead. That part really does't matter. The important part is that there is a resurrection. Bodies will rise from the dead just as Jesus did. They will be joined with their spirits.
God is all-powerful. How he decides to resurrect Elijah is up to Him. He is the God of the impossible. Don't build your theology around something you can't understand.

When you get down into the "meat of the word", you'll find the bible to be quite different than what most have read/understood.

You are not getting into the meat of the Word. You have built a theology around needless speculation, much of which is heresy.
BTW, are you into the Third Wave movement?
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

HoP; It don't offend me at all but if it means what you say then everyone should stop using it and you say the children are going to be "abducted", thats a new one.

Teachers voice;

, All depends on what teacher you go to don't it. I personally go to God myself for wisdom as the Scripture teaches me. Apostle Paul went and learn by teachers to the letter of the Law but yet found he was lacking until he ask of God "what would you have me to do". My wife is a retired over 30 year teacher and she has to ask me about a lot of things. Myself, I went to Dearborn Ford College for engineering courses but the biggest teacher I ever had was experience and that I have it over you.

One time we were redoing a High School and hired the teachers to put together some cabinets, dumbest people I have ever met when they get outside of teaching, I never laughed so hard in my life watching them trying to put small bolts in those cabinet but they laughed also and would tell you same thing I just did.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by DHK:
So what do these verses have to say when each one is taken in its context? It is a shame to quote a string of verses without giving any plausible explanation.

In fact you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say. It even says in Psalm 14:1 that "there is no God."

I "Assumed", incorrectly quite obviously, that ya'll understood that Jesus's flesh/blood was "Spiritual food/drink" to sustain life.

And the "Lust of the flesh" is the food that keeps satan alive in the world today, if no one sinned, satan wouldn't be "Alive" in the world.

Meat/tater sustain the life of the flesh, Jesus's "parable" of his flesh/blood is symbolic of food for the spirit/soul.

You are not even making any sense here. That which is food for our spirit is the Word of God.

To the carnal mind, it won't make any sense, that's why they asked, "how can he give us his flesh to eat".

and so is giving Satan "Dust" (flesh) to eat. What kind of heresy are you advocating here? Like I said you can make the Bible say anything that you want if you try hard enough. Since when does dust equal flesh in the Bible?

Since words have a meaning/connection that explains the scripture, Adam made from dust/satan eating dust, wasn't written by "Accident".

Does Eliajh have "TWO SOULS", one to occupy his original body and the resurrected body of John the Baptist????

Understand what the resurrection is all about. The resurrection always refers to the body--always. The spirit never dies. DHK

Yes but Elijah spirit occupied two different bodies, are both of them going to be resurected???

I think Ya'll are in "over your heads", but at least, ya found out there more to scripture than just those "words on the paper".

Have to run, later.

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Sal; Where is indwelt in the Scriptues also being you are teaching me? So far the score is 0 on your part.

Also, I have to go to church again but will continue when I return.

Please do some studying while I am gone and please read about the souls under the altar of God while you are at it. Also a number that no man could number clothed in white in Heaven. As Patton said; I Shall Return!!!

Maybe you should be the one who studies why there are those souls under the altar and you could only come up with those saved during the Great Tribulation.

BTW, the Church is never ressurrected, it ain't never died! It is called away to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

**Edit**

You can dance around the issue all you want, but your study is not approved before God or man.

The Bible is quite clear.**Edit**

And although your picture does indicate a proud stance, I wouldn't try to compare my position with such an honourable man as Patton if I were you, but just to set you straight about something else, it was General MacArthur that said , "I shall return".

[ May 20, 2006, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Salamander:
Being filled is not indwelt.

The word indwelt means to exist within. Are you saying that there's a way to be filled with the Spirit without the Spirit existing in you? That would be a pretty neat trick. </font>[/QUOTE]No, I am not saying what you conjured up.

If you'll take the time to explain the sealing of the Spirit of Promise and compare that with being filled with the Spirit you would find out that it is an admonishment to all believers, saved believers, to be filled with the Spirit because they either are not controlled by the Spirit or they should be more often.

BTW, when did JtB get saved?