• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

When is "fulness of the Gentiles"

skypair

Active Member
Brother Bob said:
Mary had no brothers so the blood line from David came through Mary and Jesus came to sit upon David's throne, to which there shall be no end. Do you honestly think that Jesus is going to get off the throne and give it to David. Remember when they called to Jesus, "thou son of David"????
"Jesus came to sit one David's throne" ... where and when did He do that?

I declare that you are just like the Jews, still looking for a natural kingdom.
And you are like the Whacko Waco sect that thought it was already here! :laugh:

Well, that sliver over in Israel that you talked of before, they all are going to die in unbelief.
ALL?? Where's the remnant of Israel you talked about?

What good will a MK do them if they die in sin and can't go to where Jesus is. You need to get away from that Jewish doctrine, and believe Jesus on how the end times will be.
It's the same doctrine throughout the Bible but you refuse to read Isa 60-66 and Ezek 41-49. You have "wiped out" the memory of God's people, Israel from you conscience --- you're conscience is "seared" as a Thandgiving goose! ("Blessed are those who bless you [Israel] and cursed are thos who curse you." sayeth the Lord. That's an example of the covenant that hasn't been fulfilled, BB, to your great warning!

You are so confused who Israel is.
No, you are confused about Who I and the Bible say are Israel.

They are those "born of God", in other words "born again".
SPIITUAL Israel is born of God -- fleshly Israel (race) and religious Israel (Judaism) are NOT born of God.

You are caught up in a "catch 22" where to you, Israel only means one thing but to God it means 3 things: 1) spiritual/vine, 2) reiligious/olive tree, and 3) national/fig tree. #1 issue when studying scripture is to know which if these the passage speaks of. Shall we study each together?

skypair
 

skypair

Active Member
Brother Bob said:
HankD: do you believe that Jesus is King and sitting on David's throne forever???
NO, He is sitting on His Father's throne until the earth be made His footstool!


sky
 

Brother Bob

New Member
skypair said:
"Jesus came to sit one David's throne" ... where and when did He do that?

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
HankD: do you believe that Jesus is King and sitting on David's throne forever???
NO, He is sitting on His Father's throne until the earth be made His footstool!


sky
Luk 1:32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?



And you are like the Whacko Waco sect that thought it was already here! :laugh:

ALL?? Where's the remnant of Israel you talked about?

Rom 9:27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:


It's the same doctrine throughout the Bible but you refuse to read Isa 60-66 and Ezek 41-49. You have "wiped out" the memory of God's people, Israel from you conscience --- you're conscience is "seared" as a Thandgiving goose! ("Blessed are those who bless you [Israel] and cursed are thos who curse you." sayeth the Lord. That's an example of the covenant that hasn't been fulfilled, BB, to your great warning!

No, you are confused about Who I and the Bible say are Israel.

SPIITUAL Israel is born of God -- fleshly Israel (race) and religious Israel (Judaism) are NOT born of God.

You are caught up in a "catch 22" where to you, Israel only means one thing but to God it means 3 things: 1) spiritual/vine, 2) reiligious/olive tree, and 3) national/fig tree. #1 issue when studying scripture is to know which if these the passage speaks of. Shall we study each together?

No, you don't know what you are talking about.
Again, you don't know who Israel is!

Eph 2:19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; You get that, both Jew and Gentile are of one household. You want more?

Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

skypair

Luk 1:32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Amillennialism: (Also known as Nonmillennialism). Although this belief system was present from the early days of Christianity, St. Augustine (354 - 430 CE) was largely responsible for the establishment of amillennialism as formal church belief. It remained the generally accepted system throughout Christianity until the 19th century. Many mainline Protestant denominations -- including many Reformed theologians and some Baptists -- still teach Amillennialism. They believe that the Kingdom of God is present in the world today through the presence of the the heavenly reign of Christ, the Bible, the Holy Spirit and Christianity. Both good and evil will continue in the world until the current Church Age ends suddenly as Christ returns to the sky above the earth. The Rapture follows. The Redeemed are transported to heaven where they will adopt spiritual bodies. The majority of humanity will be sent to Hell at this time for eternal punishment. The world will be abandoned. History is no more. Under this belief system, we are currently living in the Millennium and in the Tribulation period. Events described in The Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) and in most of the book of Revelation are seen as occurrences which have already happened, or which are symbolic in nature and not to be taken literally. The Antichrist is looked upon figuratively and not as a real person

I am not alone.

BBob,
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
skypair said:
NO, He is sitting on His Father's throne
until the earth be made His footstool!


sky

Amen, Brother Skypair -- Preach it!
:thumbs:

Messiah Yeshua is part of a triune God.
Messiah Yeshua is Priest, Prophet & King in three Kingdoms:


1. The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit
- God in you, the hope of glory
2. The Kingdom of Christ
- the Physical/Earthly Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
- (a physical
3. The Kingdom of God the Father
- the eternal new Heavens & New Earth
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Ed Edwards said:

Amen, Brother Skypair -- Preach it!
:thumbs:

Messiah Yeshua is part of a triune God.
Messiah Yeshua is Priest, Prophet & King in three Kingdoms:


1. The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit
- God in you, the hope of glory
2. The Kingdom of Christ
- the Physical/Earthly Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
- (a physical
3. The Kingdom of God the Father
- the eternal new Heavens & New Earth

Figured you knew better Ed. All of you MK eschatologist can't even agree with each other. You have pre-trib, post-trib, pre-mil, post mil, pre-trib, post-trib, Historical Premillennialism:, Dispensationalism, Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Pre-wrath RapturePartial, RapturePreterism.

PREACH IT!!!, WHICH ONE????


Luk 1:32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Amillennialism: (Also known as Nonmillennialism). Although this belief system was present from the early days of Christianity, St. Augustine (354 - 430 CE) was largely responsible for the establishment of amillennialism as formal church belief. It remained the generally accepted system throughout Christianity until the 19th century. Many mainline Protestant denominations -- including many Reformed theologians and some Baptists -- still teach Amillennialism. They believe that the Kingdom of God is present in the world today through the presence of the the heavenly reign of Christ, the Bible, the Holy Spirit and Christianity. Both good and evil will continue in the world until the current Church Age ends suddenly as Christ returns to the sky above the earth. The Rapture follows. The Redeemed are transported to heaven where they will adopt spiritual bodies. The majority of humanity will be sent to Hell at this time for eternal punishment. The world will be abandoned. History is no more. Under this belief system, we are currently living in the Millennium and in the Tribulation period. Events described in The Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) and in most of the book of Revelation are seen as occurrences which have already happened, or which are symbolic in nature and not to be taken literally. The Antichrist is looked upon figuratively and not as a real person

I am not alone.

BBob
 
Last edited by a moderator:

EdSutton

New Member
Brother Bob said:
The blood line couldn't come through Joseph, it had to come through Mary. There was a Law in Israel where the linage or inheritance could not come through a woman, unless they had no brothers which Moses gave the women a right to inherit, if they had not brothers. Mary had no brothers so the blood line from David came through Mary and Jesus came to sit upon David's throne, to which there shall be no end. Do you honestly think that Jesus is going to get off the throne and give it to David. Remember when they called to Jesus, "thou son of David"????
Missed part of this on my first time through, when I replied.

To my knowledge, Scripture says nothing about whether or not Mary did or did not have any brothers or sisters, or about any of her other family members outside of Elizabeth (and Zachariah) who were 'kin', John the Baptist, and Heli (Joseph "was ... of Heli", meaning in the context and lineage used in Luke, that Heli was the father of Mary, and Joseph is therefore the son-in-law of Heli. You might notice that "the son of" is italicized, meaning that it was 'supplied' by the translators, but not found in the Greek text, here.), before the birth of Jesus. It is pure speculation to claim that Mary had no brothers. And whether or not she had brothers, is entirely immaterial to the 'blood lineage', of Jesus, as well.

Second, the phrase "David's throne". A red herring, as you here phrase this, unfortunately.

Actually Jesus, as the offspring and 'Son' of David, is to be 'invested' on David's throne. (I Ki. 9:5; Ps. 132:11; Isa. 16:5; Lk.1:32) However Scripture does not expressly declare when that happens (or happened), that I find, although the tense used is yet future as of Lk. 1:32. (But Matt. 2:2 has the 'Magoi" saying that he was born King of the Jews, And Jesus is referred to, in some way. by that title 16 other times in the gospels, including the inscription Pilate had nailed to the cross.) And in the same future wording, it is states in Lk. 1:33 that Jesus - well let's just see what some of that section of Scripture actually does say, when Gabriel visited the incredulous Mary. (My emphases.)
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”[a]
29 But when she saw him,[b] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. (Lk. 1:26-38 - NKJV)
Yet future, at that time. And certainly Jesus is not yet "reigning over the House of Jacob" in any expected way that I see, in the usual sense and meaning of these words. Yet he is and was King of the Jews. A contradiction, here? Absolutely not! Merely multiple facets given of His royal kingship, for He is also simultanerously the Son of David, Son of Abraham, Son of Adam, and Son of God. (Matt. 1:1, 20; 12:23; Lk. 3:23, 38) And any one facet does not automatically cancel out another facet, here, or anywhere else in Scripture, for that matter.

An example of what I mean: I happen to have some second, third, and/or fourth cousins that are variously married to other second, third, and/or fourth cousins, that I am aware of. (I actually have some double, triple, and quadruple cousins that I know, thanks to someone else who didn't have a life, :D and took the time necessary to research all this.) :rolleyes:

And in several instances, the parents of children are also cousins, and even double and triple cousins of their own offspring, in a couple of instances. The fact that they are the parents, does not mean they are also not still cousins. Granted, one is far more important than the other, but the 'lesser kin', is still entirely valid 'kin'. Think about it.

Ed
 

EdSutton

New Member
Brother Bob said:
I am not alone.
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/

"We are not alone!"
spaceship.gif
spacecraft.gif


laughing_rolling.gif
4.gif


Ed
 

Brother Bob

New Member
EdSutton said:
Missed part of this on my first time through, when I replied.

To my knowledge, Scripture says nothing about whether or not Mary did or did not have any brothers or sisters, or about any of her other family members outside of Elizabeth (and Zachariah) who were 'kin', John the Baptist, and Heli (Joseph "was ... of Heli", meaning in the context and lineage used in Luke, that Heli was the father of Mary, and Joseph is therefore the son-in-law of Heli. You might notice that "the son of" is italicized, meaning that it was 'supplied' by the translators, but not found in the Greek text, here.), before the birth of Jesus. It is pure speculation to claim that Mary had no brothers. And whether or not she had brothers, is entirely immaterial to the 'blood lineage', of Jesus, as well.

1. (1-5) The request of Zelophehad’s daughters.

Then came the daughters of Zelophehad the son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, from the families of Manasseh the son of Joseph; and these were the names of his daughters: Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah, Milcah, and Tirzah. And they stood before Moses, before Eleazar the priest, and before the leaders and all the congregation, by the doorway of the tabernacle of meeting, saying: “Our father died in the wilderness; but he was not in the company of those who gathered together against the Lord, in company with Korah, but he died in his own sin; and he had no sons. Why should the name of our father be removed from among his family because he had no son? Give us a possession among our father’s brothers.” So Moses brought their case before the Lord.

a. Then came the daughters of Zelophehad: Normally, the land inheritance should be passed from a father to his sons in Israel, not to the daughters. What then in the case of Zelophehad’s daughters, whose father had no sons? Will their father’s inheritance simply be assumed by someone else, or will his name live on through his inheritance?

i. In generally, the system was not completely unfair to women. A woman received a dowry from her father as a wedding present. Typically, the father required his potential son-in-law to provide much if not all of the dowry. A dowry might consist of clothes, jewelry, money, furniture or more, and it was thought that the dowry could help provide for the woman if her husband left her or unexpectedly died.

b. So Moses brought their case before the Lord: Moses did what he should when faced with a new situation: He sought God.

2. (6-11) The settlement.

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: “The daughters of Zelophehad speak what is right; you shall surely give them a possession of inheritance among their father’s brothers, and cause the inheritance of their father to pass to them. And you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a man dies and has no son, then you shall cause his inheritance to pass to his daughter. If he has no daughter, then you shall give his inheritance to his brothers. If he has no brothers, then you shall give his inheritance to his father’s brothers. And if his father has no brothers, then you shall give his inheritance to the relative closest him in his family, and he shall possess it.’ “ And it shall be to the children of Israel a statute of judgment, just as the Lord commanded Moses.


Second, the phrase "David's throne". A red herring, as you here phrase this, unfortunately.

Actually Jesus, as the offspring and 'Son' of David, is to be 'invested' on David's throne. (I Ki. 9:5; Ps. 132:11; Isa. 16:5; Lk.1:32) However Scripture does not expressly declare when that happens (or happened), that I find, although the tense used is yet future as of Lk. 1:32. (But Matt. 2:2 has the 'Magoi" saying that he was born King of the Jews, And Jesus is referred to, in some way. by that title 16 other times in the gospels, including the inscription Pilate had nailed to the cross.) And in the same future wording, it is states in Lk. 1:33 that Jesus - well let's just see what some of that section of Scripture actually does say, when Gabriel visited the incredulous Mary. (My emphases.) Yet future, at that time. And certainly Jesus is not yet "reigning over the House of Jacob" in any expected way that I see, in the usual sense and meaning of these words. Yet he is and was King of the Jews. A contradiction, here? Absolutely not! Merely multiple facets given of His royal kingship, for He is also simultanerously the Son of David, Son of Abraham, Son of Adam, and Son of God. (Matt. 1:1, 20; 12:23; Lk. 3:23, 38) And any one facet does not automatically cancel out another facet, here, or anywhere else in Scripture, for that matter.

An example of what I mean: I happen to have some second, third, and/or fourth cousins that are variously married to other second, third, and/or fourth cousins, that I am aware of. (I actually have some double, triple, and quadruple cousins that I know, thanks to someone else who didn't have a life, :D and took the time necessary to research all this.) :rolleyes:

And in several instances, the parents of children are also cousins, and even double and triple cousins of their own offspring, in a couple of instances. The fact that they are the parents, does not mean they are also not still cousins. Granted, one is far more important than the other, but the 'lesser kin', is still entirely valid 'kin'. Think about it.

Ed
So, you seem to admit He is King of the Jews, but not on David's Throne, but that was who was to be their King. I don't understand that kind of logic.

How many Kingdoms do you think there will be, and how many will Jesus sit on eternally.

1Kings 9:
6 "But if you or your sons turn away from me and do not observe the commands and decrees I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land I have given them and will reject this temple I have consecrated for my Name. Israel will then become a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples. (1K.9:4-6).

1st Kings chapter 11
4: For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5: For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6: And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

The New Covenant of Redemption and Salvation, of Grace, free, by faith in Jesus Christ (Jer.31:31-34, Heb.8:8-13, Eph.2:8-10):
Nobody could fulfill the Law of Moses, not even Moses!... So, God had a great new idea, a New Covenant... He will put His law in the mind and heart of the believers instead of in stones.The New Covenant rests upon the sacrifice of Christ and secures eternal blessedness for believers.

Fulfilled in Christ by the Blood of Christ, and went into effect at the Last Supper:
This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. (Luke 22:20; cf. 1Cor.11:25).
- Condition: By Faith in Christ, without works... but to do good works!, with Christ in the heart of the believer: (Gal.2:20, Jn15:1-7).

Jer 33:21[Then] may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

Hbr 1:6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hbr 1:8But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Rev 3:21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Acts, chapter 2
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28: Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Here Peter plainly tells us that God raised His Son, from the dead to sit on David's throne.


BBob,
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Brother Bob

New Member
Ed Edwards said:

Amen, Brother Skypair -- Preach it!
:thumbs:

Messiah Yeshua is part of a triune God.
Messiah Yeshua is Priest, Prophet & King in three Kingdoms:


1. The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit
- God in you, the hope of glory
2. The Kingdom of Christ
- the Physical/Earthly Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
- (a physical
3. The Kingdom of God the Father
- the eternal new Heavens & New Earth

I would study some more first!

Acts, chapter 2
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28: Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Here Peter plainly tells us that God raised His Son, from the dead to sit on David's throne.


I have been thinking. If I preach the MK is Spiritual and if you die in your sins you can't go to where the Lord is, and when end times come and there is a MK, then those I taught have not missed out on eternal life, but will have a MK also.

If those you teach, that there is a MK coming that people can repent and the ones you teach, decide to wait until the MK to repent and end times come and there is no MK, then all those who waited for the MK to repent, will be in eternal damnation won't they.

BBob, says repent now, why you know you have a chance to, and make it as sure as you can. The early church and I may just be right!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
//If those you teach, that there is a MK coming that people
can repent and the ones you teach, decide to wait until
the MK to repent and end times come and there is no MK,
then all those who waited for the MK to repent,
will be in eternal damnation won't they. //

Amen Brother Brother Bob -- Preach it! :thumbs:

That is why I never bother to teach that
people in the Church Age can repent during
the physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

NOW is the only acceptable time for
salvation -- all other times might not
be available.

2 Co 6:2 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):

For he sayth, I haue heard thee in a time accepted,
and in the day of saluation haue I succoured thee:
beholde nowe the accepted time,
beholde nowe the day of saluation.


 

Brother Bob

New Member
Ed Edwards said:
//If those you teach, that there is a MK coming that people
can repent and the ones you teach, decide to wait until
the MK to repent and end times come and there is no MK,
then all those who waited for the MK to repent,
will be in eternal damnation won't they. //

Amen Brother Brother Bob -- Preach it! :thumbs:

That is why I never bother to teach that
people in the Church Age can repent during
the physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

NOW is the only acceptable time for
salvation -- all other times might not
be available.

2 Co 6:2 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):

For he sayth, I haue heard thee in a time accepted,
and in the day of saluation haue I succoured thee:
beholde nowe the accepted time,
beholde nowe the day of saluation.
That is a very good response Ed; press on.

BBob,
 

npetreley

New Member
Ed Edwards said:
//If those you teach, that there is a MK coming that people
can repent and the ones you teach, decide to wait until
the MK to repent and end times come and there is no MK,
then all those who waited for the MK to repent,
will be in eternal damnation won't they. //

Amen Brother Brother Bob -- Preach it! :thumbs:

That is why I never bother to teach that
people in the Church Age can repent during
the physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

NOW is the only acceptable time for
salvation -- all other times might not
be available.

2 Co 6:2 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):

For he sayth, I haue heard thee in a time accepted,
and in the day of saluation haue I succoured thee:
beholde nowe the accepted time,
beholde nowe the day of saluation.



What if people WANT to repent during that time? Will they not be allowed to do so?
 

Brother Bob

New Member
npetreley said:
What if people WANT to repent during that time? Will they not be allowed to do so?

That time has come already. If you die in your sins, where the Lord is, you cannot come. In the 1st Century those who taught a MK, taught that it was a time for all fleshly desires and sensual desires, they dropped that part as time went on. The Jews taught a MK before Christ ever come and the book of Revelations was ever written, some taught it would be a 1000 years and some taught it would be forever. Some claim that the Christians picked up on the Jewish belief and added the "fleshly desires" to try and attract the Jews to Christianity, it was called Chiliasm, I think.


Bbob,
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
npetreley said:
What if people WANT to repent during that time?
Will they not be allowed to do so?

Possibly?? I'm not going to bet my Eternal Life on anything
but a SURE THING.

Here is a SURE THING:

Rom 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised
him vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:
10 For with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnes,
and with the mouth man confesseth to saluation.


Now that is a SURE BET for your eternal soul!
 

EdSutton

New Member
npetreley said:
What if people WANT to repent during that time? Will they not be allowed to do so?
I don't believe any from "the church age" enter the Millenial Kingdom, save the Tribulation saints that survive that period (Mt. 25:34)- [saints, that were not saved at the time the church was caught out (I Thes. 4:13-18; II Thes. 2:1-12)] but became believers during the Tribulation. (Rev. 7:9-17; Matt. 25:34)

And these saints are only the saints, who were saved during or because of the ministry of the 144,00 sealed of the 12 Tribes, the "two witnesses", the 'word' of Moses and the Lamb, and the proclamation of the everlasting gospel by the angel, from the time of the Tribulation. (Mt. 24:9-15; Rev. 7:3-8; 11:3-12; 14:1-5, 6-7; 15:2-4)

They will have been judged at the "sheep and goats" judgment after the end of the Tribulation. (Mt. 24:29-30; 25:31-46; Lk. 21:5-36)

The Church Age saints, who are "kept from the hour of temptation" and "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Rev. 3:10; Jer. 30:7), have already been 'raptured', as the dead in Christ, (soul and spirit) are brought by Him to 'retrieve' their resurrected bodies and be instantly changed, along with "we which are alive and remain" as we are "caught up together with them" (I Cor. 15:16-24, 51-58; I Thes. 4:13-18), stood before the Bema, and then, as the now completed Body of Christ, is eternally with the Lord, just as the dead saints are now. (Rom. 14:10; II Cor. 5:8-10)

As I think the above shows, some do 'repent' during this time. [Still, repentance for salvation, in the Tribulation, just as in the 'Church age", has nothing to do with "repent from sin(s)", as I have posted before.]

But not "church age" saints. (One can't be both a "church age" saint, and a "Tribulation saint", at the same time.) The church age saints already 'repented toward God, with faith in the Lord jesus Christ, (Ac. 20:21) previously, so are not around at this time, physically.

So the saints, in view here, are the ones we call "the Tribulation saints".

Hope that helps a bit.

Ed

P.S. Jer. 30:9 tells of a future time when 'Jacob' shall yet "serve The LORD their God, and David their king, whom I (obviously the LORD of hosts, in the context) will raise up for them. :D
 
Last edited by a moderator:

npetreley

New Member
The point is, I don't think we're talking about what they'll be able to do after they die. I believe you're saying people will be living and given no opportunity to repent. Is that right? Or do I misunderstand you?
 

DeafPosttrib

New Member
EdSutton,

2 Cor. 6:2 is speaking of this present age, that we are preaching the gospel. People must repent and accept of salvation of TODAY, not wait till last minute after Christ once come with angels, it will be too late for them to repent. There is NO another second chnace for a person to repent once after Christ comes, it will be finish for them - Matt. 25:13.

Bible doesn't teaching us there will be another second chance of repentance beyond rapture. 2 Cor. 6:2 tells us, people must believe abd accept of salvation right now of this present age of the gospel, when once Christ comes, then this present age will be OVER.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
 

EdSutton

New Member
Brother Bob said:
That time has come already. If you die in your sins, where the Lord is, you cannot come. In the 1st Century those who taught a MK, taught that it was a time for all fleshly desires and sensual desires, they dropped that part as time went on. The Jews taught a MK before Christ ever come and the book of Revelations was ever written, some taught it would be a 1000 years and some taught it would be forever. Some claim that the Christians picked up on the Jewish belief and added the "fleshly desires" to try and attract the Jews to Christianity, it was called Chiliasm, I think.


Bbob,
In teaching your fractured history lesson here :D, I believe you have a couple of errors.

You are confusing the Gnostic teachings of "a time for all fleshly desires and sensual desires", with those of orthodoxy, in the early church. (Not that many of the Church fathers were all that much a paragon of orthodoxy, you understand.) But the 'orthodox', even while accepting as valid, views as varied as what amounts to the A-millenialism you are proclaiming, when it was espoused some 400 A.D (Origen), Preterism, Post- Trib millenialism (Justin), a view more akin to today's Pre-trib, Pre-mill (Irenaeus), the views of Tertullian, Lactantius, Commodianus, et al., thankfully, and to their everlasting credit, universally rejected, roundly condemned, and could not stomach Marcion, Arius and Arianism, or the thinly veiled liscentiousness of the Gnostics.

Second, while (some of) the Jews taught a literal kingdom, they did not teach a "MK", for that is "Millenial Kingdom", and there is not any such time like 1000 years associated with it, in Scripture, until Revelation was written, and 1000 years was assigned to "rule and reign". It's kinda' hard to teach something that doesn't even exist, don't you think? At best, it would be someone's wild speculation.

Ed
 
Last edited by a moderator:

EdSutton

New Member
DeafPosttrib said:
EdSutton,

2 Cor. 6:2 is speaking of this present age, that we are preaching the gospel. People must repent and accept of salvation of TODAY, not wait till last minute after Christ once come with angels, it will be too late for them to repent. There is NO another second chnace for a person to repent once after Christ comes, it will be finish for them - Matt. 25:13.

Bible doesn't teaching us there will be another second chance of repentance beyond rapture. 2 Cor. 6:2 tells us, people must believe abd accept of salvation right now of this present age of the gospel, when once Christ comes, then this present age will be OVER.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
What are you talking about??

If by your name, you are espousing the rapture is the end of all things, so to speak, except the millenium, and the point of final judgment, I would agree that this is not possible, just as you seem to be saying. For in this scenario, the church goes through the Tribulation, hence, there is no such thing as one being saved who is not in "the Church age", unless one is born in the Millenium.

(Not that I think your theology in this, is greatly different from that of John Calvin, who said, "There are babies a span long in hell.")

What about a one year old child "Left Behind" at the Rapture, in your view? The age of Grace is over, as you said, were I to hold to this. Got an answer??

Yes, today is the time of salvation, and I proclaim that heartily. But you would have one believe that, if there is a Pre-Trib rapture, as I happen to believe, that no one will be saved during the Tribulation. I just don't see that in Scripture, as the above posted Scriptures in a previous post indicate.

Who are these saints who came out of the great Tribulation? How do you account for those?

Ed
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Brother Bob

New Member
According to records I have read, some Jews did indeed teach a 1000 year reign.
I agree that there were those who did not teach a fleshly fulfillment of the flesh and sensual desires, there were those who did teach such, according to records of the past, of which you are quoting from also.

So don't call my history flawed when it is just as good as yours. It is just that you don't want to post the unpopular records and I do.







The Millennium doctrine started in an ungodly heretic by the name of Cerinthus, who lived in the first century. It is true that the Jews generally believed that the Messiah would establish a literal or earthly kingdom. And even some of them believed that Messiah's reign would last a thousand years. We here give an extract from Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1, Page 248.
"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth. . . . Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity."






As before stated, Cerinthus was the first to attempt to introduce this doctrine under Christianity. Let history speak. In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:
"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."






This is the true origin of the Millennium theory. The reader will observe how lightly our author speaks of Cerinthus's idea of the kingdom of Christ being set up on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was "something which he [Cerinthus] pretends was shown to him by angels." Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming. Observe also that Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men." This language he uses with special reference to the one thousand years Cerinthus claimed would be spent in sensuality. Notice also that Cerinthus believed in an earthly kingdom.
Cerinthus lived in the days of the apostle John. We will now call your attention to the attitude of the beloved apostle toward this Millennial teacher. Irenaeus, who was born about 120 A. D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of John, [Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within." (Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28).

Let this be a rebuke to modern Millennial advocates. They claim their doctrine is well founded in the Apocalypse of John. But John called the founder of their theory "that enemy of the truth."

Source: H. M. Riggle, "History of the Millennium," The Kingdom of God, 1899.

There are other historians who say about the same, and of course there are others which say different.

Ed. Sutton; how do you know that the Gnostic teachings were not the real ones???? Really though, you do understand there were two understandings of the MK in the 1st and 2nd Century, and as still are.

BBob,
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top