When is "fulness of the Gentiles"

[npetreley]

The point is, I don't think we're talking about what they'll be able to do after they die. I believe you're saying people will be living and given no opportunity to repent. Is that right? Or do I misunderstand you?

Nobody wants to answer this? This is a pretty radical stand, if this is what you're saying.

 

[Brother Bob]

Nobody wants to answer this? This is a pretty radical stand, if this is what you're saying.

Well, I don't suspect you want my answer to your question Npet;?

 

[npetreley]

Well, I don't suspect you want my answer to your question Npet;?

I would very much like your answer.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Is 'fullness' quantative or qualitive?

Rom 11:25 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant
of this secret (least ye should bee arrogant in your selues)
that partly obstinacie is come to Israel,
vntill the fulnesse of the Gentiles be come in.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Romans 11:25 (TNIV = Today's New International Version):

I do not want you to be ignorant
of this mystery, brothers and sisters,
so that you may not think you are superior:
Israel has experienced a hardening in part
until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

I'd say quantitive.

[/FONT]

 

[npetreley]

There must be some mass hypnosis going on or something. I've never seen as many people run away from questions as I have in the past couple of weeks. And, by some strange coincidence, it almost always seems to be the free-willers who are doing the running.

It's a pretty simple question. What are you folks afraid of?

 

[EdSutton]

According to records I have read, some Jews did indeed teach a 1000 year reign.
I agree that there were those who did not teach a fleshly fulfillment of the flesh and sensual desires, there were those who did teach such, according to records of the past, of which you are quoting from also.

So don't call my history flawed when it is just as good as yours. It is just that you don't want to post the unpopular records and I do.







The Millennium doctrine started in an ungodly heretic by the name of Cerinthus, who lived in the first century. It is true that the Jews generally believed that the Messiah would establish a literal or earthly kingdom. And even some of them believed that Messiah's reign would last a thousand years. We here give an extract from Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1, Page 248.

"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth. . . . Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity."






​

As before stated, Cerinthus was the first to attempt to introduce this doctrine under Christianity. Let history speak. In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:

"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."






​

This is the true origin of the Millennium theory. The reader will observe how lightly our author speaks of Cerinthus's idea of the kingdom of Christ being set up on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was "something which he [Cerinthus] pretends was shown to him by angels." Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming. Observe also that Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men." This language he uses with special reference to the one thousand years Cerinthus claimed would be spent in sensuality. Notice also that Cerinthus believed in an earthly kingdom.
Cerinthus lived in the days of the apostle John. We will now call your attention to the attitude of the beloved apostle toward this Millennial teacher. Irenaeus, who was born about 120 A. D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of John, [Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within." (Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28).

Let this be a rebuke to modern Millennial advocates. They claim their doctrine is well founded in the Apocalypse of John. But John called the founder of their theory "that enemy of the truth."

Source: H. M. Riggle, "History of the Millennium," The Kingdom of God, 1899.

There are other historians who say about the same, and of course there are others which say different.

Ed. Sutton; how do you know that the Gnostic teachings were not the real ones???? Really though, you do understand there were two understandings of the MK in the 1st and 2nd Century, and as still are.

BBob,

I did not say "flawed"; I said "fractured", FTR.

The part that is 'fractured' is the attempt which you have quoted (note I did not say it originated with you, at all), to portray the speculations and licencious teachings of Gnostics, including those of Cerinthus, as somehow representative of the teachings of 'Millenialism'/'Chiliasm', and hence via a "guilt by association" approach, to oppose any and all forms of a literal Messianic kingdom on earth, at any time.

There is little question that Cerinthus was considered a heretic, by more 'orthodox' Christians, such as Irenaeus, Polycarp, and John. In fact, some of the teachings of the Gnostics, and specifically those of Cerinthus, as the 'leader' of one sect of Gnosticism, are said to be among the reasons John wrote his gospel, and his first epistle. They were contemporaries, even. As you cited above, the Apostle John, who was quite aged at the time, ran out screaming, so as to not even be in the same bath with Cerinthus, one time. (John would have no doubt, been well into his 80s at the time.) That is a pretty strong statement, I'd say, as to John's opinion. It certainly was not over his advocacy of 'millenialism', that John bolted, IMO. Irenaeus argued against many of the teachings of Cerinthus, in a part of his "Against All Heresies". Irenaeus was an advocate of one type of millenialism.

The most visible "anti-millenialist" around the early church was Marcion, the Heretic. Why was he considered a heretic? Was it because he opposed a literal kingdom? Don't think so. Remember Irenaeus? He argued just as strongly against Marcion as he did against Cerinthus.

Seems to me he held them in about the same regard. And one was somewhat in agreement with him, on the subject, while the other was opposed to it. The controversies about their teachings did not cease with their passings, although all three had died by ~ 170. Although the first great ecumenical council would center on the Arain herey, some of the teachings of both Cerinthus and Marcion would be addressed at the Council of Nicea, in 325, and be opposed by the council, and would be branded as heretical.

For some reason, that did not happen to Irenaeus. Wonder why?

G'nite, all.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

I did not say "flawed"; I said "fractured", FTR.

The part that is 'fractured' is the attempt which you have quoted (note I did not say it originated with you, at all), to portray the speculations and licencious teachings of Gnostics, including those of Cerinthus, as somehow representative of the teachings of 'Millenialism'/'Chiliasm', and hence via a "guilt by association" approach, to oppose any and all forms of a literal Messianic kingdom on earth, at any time.

There is little question that Cerinthus was considered a heretic, by more 'orthodox' Christians, such as Irenaeus, Polycarp, and John. In fact, some of the teachings of the Gnostics, and specifically those of Cerinthus, as the 'leader' of one sect of Gnosticism, are said to be among the reasons John wrote his gospel, and his first epistle. They were contemporaries, even. As you cited above, the Apostle John, who was quite aged at the time, ran out screaming, so as to not even be in the same bath with Cerinthus, one time. (John would have no doubt, been well into his 80s at the time.) That is a pretty strong statement, I'd say, as to John's opinion. It certainly was not over his advocacy of 'millenialism', that John bolted, IMO. Irenaeus argued against many of the teachings of Cerinthus, in a part of his "Against All Heresies". Irenaeus was an advocate of one type of millenialism.

The most visible "anti-millenialist" around the early church was Marcion, the Heretic. Why was he considered a heretic? Was it because he opposed a literal kingdom? Don't think so. Remember Irenaeus? He argued just as strongly against Marcion as he did against Cerinthus.

Seems to me he held them in about the same regard. And one was somewhat in agreement with him, on the subject, while the other was opposed to it. The controversies about their teachings did not cease with their passings, although all three had died by ~ 170. Although the first great ecumenical council would center on the Arain herey, some of the teachings of both Cerinthus and Marcion would be addressed at the Council of Nicea, in 325, and be opposed by the council, and would be branded as heretical.

For some reason, that did not happen to Irenaeus. Wonder why?

G'nite, all.

Ed

Apparently Cerinthus did teach a 1000 year earthly reign and stated he had received it from "angels". As you say John did run out of the bath house when he found out Cerinthus was in there, calling him a "enemy of the truth", apparently because of the "fleshly desires and sensual desires of the flesh" that Cerinthus also taught. So, John called him a liar, even though he did advocate a 1000 year reign on earth.

We do tend to use the Catholic History when it favors our position and refuse it when it goes against our theory. Truthfully, the only History we have that far back, is the Catholic documents and peices of documents found of the writings of the early fathers.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

I would very much like your answer.

Well, I believe the MK, New Heaven and New Earth, is spiritual and is over or going on now. I believe we will live, or the saved will live until we go through the Tribulations, for no flesh would be saved, except those days were shortened, for the elects sake. At the end of the Tribulations (which is not the wrath of God), Jesus will come in the air and all that are in the grave will come forth, both just and unjust. The saved will accend upward to meet the Lord in the air and that is "all" of the saved, from old time till then. We will meet the Lord in the air, to everly be with Him.
There are 7 vials filled with the wrath of God in Heaven that are reserved for the Devil and his angels, the unbelievers, them that worketh abomination and them that make a lie. There will be silence in Heaven for the space of 1/2 hour and smoke and incense will come out of the City of God, where Jesus and God are the temple and the light, and no one will be allowed to enter until all that are left on the earth shall be judged at the Great White Throne and the seven vials of the wrath of God will be pour out upon this earth and the dead, both small and great will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and His angels, and the smoke of their torment will ascend upward for ever and ever. Then Heaven will speak and say it is finished. This earth will then pass away with a great noise. The Children of God will then enter Heaven with the Savior where we will live and praise God and we will dwell in the house of the Lord forever and ever.

BBob, "duck"

 

[npetreley]

Well, I believe the MK, New Heaven and New Earth, is spiritual and is over or going on now. I believe we will live, or the saved will live until we go through the Tribulations, for no flesh would be saved, except those days were shortened, for the elects sake. At the end of the Tribulations (which is not the wrath of God), Jesus will come in the air and all that are in the grave will come forth, both just and unjust. The saved will accend upward to meet the Lord in the air and that is "all" of the saved, from old time till then. We will meet the Lord in the air, to everly be with Him.
There are 7 vials filled with the wrath of God in Heaven that are reserved for the Devil and his angels, the unbelievers, them that worketh abomination and them that make a lie. There will be silence in Heaven for the space of 1/2 hour and smoke and incense will come out of the City of God, where Jesus and God are the temple and the light, and no one will be allowed to enter until all that are left on the earth shall be judged at the Great White Throne and the seven vials of the wrath of God will be pour out upon this earth and the dead, both small and great will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and His angels, and the smoke of their torment will ascend upward for ever and ever. Then Heaven will speak and say it is finished. This earth will then pass away with a great noise. The Children of God will then enter Heaven with the Savior where we will live and praise God and we will dwell in the house of the Lord forever and ever.

BBob, "duck"

I don't know why you're ducking. The above is very close to what I believe about the way end times play out. But you still haven't answered my question. My question is, "Do you believe that there will be a period of time on earth where living people will not be able to repent, even if they want to?"

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't know why you're ducking. The above is very close to what I believe about the way end times play out. But you still haven't answered my question. My question is, "Do you believe that there will be a period of time on earth where living people will not be able to repent, even if they want to?"

When it says time shall be not more, repentance will stop. But, I am one who believes scripture that it was appointed unto man once to die, so those that are alive will be changed in a moment, which I believe it will be a moment of death. The righteous will be changed to a spiritual body by a moment of death, and the unrighteous will be changed to a body that will die but never die, in a moment. This may be strange to some, but I believe the scripture must be fulfilled.

How can there be a resurrection for them that are alive when Jesus comes, except they have that moment of death.

BBob,

 

[npetreley]

When it says time shall be not more, repentance will stop. But, I am one who believes scripture that it was appointed unto man once to die, so those that are alive will be changed in a moment, which I believe it will be a moment of death. The righteous will be changed to a spiritual body by a moment of death, and the unrighteous will be changed to a body that will die but never die, in a moment. This may be strange to some, but I believe the scripture must be fulfilled.

How can there be a resurrection for them that are alive when Jesus comes, except they have that moment of death.

BBob,

Are you avoiding my question or do you simply not understand it? The question is pretty much a "yes or no" question. The thread included this from you and Ed.

//If those you teach, that there is a MK coming that people
can repent and the ones you teach, decide to wait until
the MK to repent and end times come and there is no MK,
then all those who waited for the MK to repent,
will be in eternal damnation won't they. //

Amen Brother Brother Bob -- Preach it!

That is why I never bother to teach that
people in the Church Age can repent during
the physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

It sounds to me like you're both saying that there will be a period of time (the earthly MK) where people will not be able to repent, even if they want to. This has nothing to do with physical death, or being appointed once to die. This is about people who are living on earth, but cannot repent, even if they want to. Is this what you believe or not? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. If I can't get a simple answer, I'll have to assume you're ashamed of what you believe, or are afraid to answer it, or something. Because I don't see how I can make this question any easier.

 

[HankD]

Well Brother Bob,

God bless you. We each have a different view (some more different than others) about "things to come" before , hile and after Jesus returns.

I've given my view as have several others.

I'm glad there is no animosity, that is as it should be.

And whoever is the closest to the actual reality, I don't think they will say "we told you so".

Your brother in Christ.
HankD

 

[npetreley]

Just as a clarification to my question (maybe this will make it easier, after all) -- are you saying people won't be able to repent in the MK because there will NOT be an earthly millenial kingdom? Or they won't be able to repent because the opportunity will not exist for them, even though they're alive on earth?

 

[Brother Bob]

Just as a clarification to my question (maybe this will make it easier, after all) -- are you saying people won't be able to repent in the MK because there will NOT be an earthly millenial kingdom? Or they won't be able to repent because the opportunity will not exist for them, even though they're alive on earth?

I am saying they will not be able to repent, because there will be no MK earthly kingdom.

BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

Well Brother Bob,

God bless you. We each have a different view (some more different than others) about "things to come" before , hile and after Jesus returns.

I've given my view as have several others.

I'm glad there is no animosity, that is as it should be.

And whoever is the closest to the actual reality, I don't think they will say "we told you so".

Your brother in Christ.
HankD

Amen to that Brother...........

 

[npetreley]

I am saying they will not be able to repent, because there will be no MK earthly kingdom.

BBob

Okay, NOW I understand, thanks. :wavey:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I want to make clarify on 2 Cor. 6:2. And also, I do not always agree with Brother Bob on everything what he saying.

Many areas, I agree with Brother Bob, what he saying. He says, there will be no repentance because there will be no MK earthly kingdom. Partially, he is correct. But, what I read his post. He says, he believes when Christ shall come, this old planet esrth shall be burned and pass away, and we shall dwell with Christ in heaven forever and ever. I do not agree with him.

2 Peter 3:10-13 telling us, this old planet earth shall be burned and pass away, so, we are eager looking forward for new heavens and a new earth follow at the coming of the Lord in that day. I believe it teaches us, this old planet earth shall be burned and pass away at the coming of Christ. Then, after Christ judge all people, He shall recreate new heavens and a new earth. I believe we shall see a LITERAL physical new earth much more glory and beautiful than this present old earth. When the new earth crestes completed, Christ shall send New Jerusalem descend out of the third heaven, put it on new earth and we shall dwell with Christ on new earth forever and ever according to Revelation chapter 21.

Now back to 2 Corinthians 6:2. I understand this verse very clear, what Paul means. He told us, behold, today is the accepted time of salvation. The point is, our life is very short time, we only live at least 100 years, and die. Where our souls will go after die? James 4:14 tells us, our life shall be very short time and then vanished away. Often, people saying, "Not now, my life is plenty time to do, I do not need Christ." Many people do not realize, their life could be suddenly die the next day, it will be too late for them to make decision and accept Christ. When they once to die, it will be too late for them- Heb. 9:28. They are appointed to face the judgment once after they die. That why, they must make decision right now before too late.

Secondly, we do not know when Christ shall come. Bible warns us, Christ's coming shall be like as thief in the night(1 Thess. 5:2-9). Same as Christ explained in Matt. 24:37-42, Christ told us, His coming shall be like as Noah's day. When the flood came, people were not expecting it, and suddenly it came and took them all away - killed so quickly. Same with at the coming of Christ shall be come. When Christ shall come, His angels will come down upon all people, and grab them by supernatural force, and take them up to face the throne of Christ to judge them. It will be too late for them to repentance. Right now, people have time to make decision and repentance, because the gospel of the kingdom is still open to all nations for nearly 2000 years. They have time to make decision and repent. But, when once Christ comes, and angels grab them, it will be OVER for them to have another time of opporunity to make decison of repentance and salvation. It will be too late for them to repent afteer Christ comes. All people who do not repent, will be taken away by angels, and cast them away into the lake of fire. It will be done for them.

There is no another second chance of repentance beyond second coming according Matt. 25:13.

Dispensationalists believe people who will miss rapture, will have another chance to repentance during great tribulation period, will be saved during tribulation period. Also, some premills believe there will be repentance during MK time, because many babies will be born during MK time, will make decision for their salvation.

But, in 1 Cor. 15:50 tells us, flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. It means that, sins cannot be enter the kingdom, all flesh people(unsaved) will be destroyed by cast them away into the lake of fire at the judgment day. Only saved people will have immortality and enter the kingdom with Christ.

Matt. 25:41,46 telling us very clear, at the judgment day, all unsaved will be cast away into everlasting fire, and saved people(sheep) shall go into eternal life with Christ.

Jesus tells us, there will be no marriage, no more produce children in the next age to come, because people(saved) will be like as angels according to Luke 20:35-36.

The opporunity time of salvation offer to the world(2 Cor. 6:2) will be finished at coming of Christ, it's time for to judge the world(great white throne), cast all unsaved people away into everlasting fire, that's it.

That what the Bible teaching us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

I want to make clarify on 2 Cor. 6:2. And also, I do not always agree with Brother Bob on everything what he saying.

Many areas, I agree with Brother Bob, what he saying. He says, there will be no repentance because there will be no MK earthly kingdom. Partially, he is correct. But, what I read his post. He says, he believes when Christ shall come, this old planet esrth shall be burned and pass away, and we shall dwell with Christ in heaven forever and ever. I do not agree with him.

I doubt is any two agree on everything Brother Deaf; but we are close with the exception of the New Heaven and New Earth. I believe it will be where God is and you believe it will be here. I believe New Jerusalem is the Church, for the Church is the bride of the Lamb.

Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Rev 21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The souls shall be returning for the bodies in the resurrection.


Anyway, we are close in what we believe.

BBob,

 

[Pilgrimer]

Romans 11:25 "... until the full number of the Gentiles come in." That means until all whom God is determined to save from among the Gentiles be saved . That's connected to 2 Peter 3:9 :" The Lord does not delay His promise , as some understand delay , but is patient with you , not wanting any to perish , but all to come to repentance ." ( HCSB )

What Paul said about Israel being hardened until the fulness of the nations has come in is the same thing Jesus said: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

The nation of Israel was given a forty year period of grace after the beginning of the Gospel before the judgment of the Law was executed and the nation of Israel and the Mosaic Covenant came to an end with the destruction of the nation, the city, the temple and the cessastion of all the sacrifices and ordinances. But that could not happen until the Gospel had first been preached in all the world, to all nations.

Paul was talking in Romans 11 about those of Israel who were blind to the truth of the Gospel and was explaining why they were blinded and how long that blindness would last . . . until the great commission was fulfilled to all the nations . . . not just Israel. Then the end would come and the nation of Israel and the things of the Old Covenant would be destroyed.

But "all Israel" would be saved referring to those who were "Jacob," that is the remnant who were the elect, the younger brother, the new covenant Jews. The rest of the Jews were Esau . . . they sold their birthright to God's heavenly kingdom for a mess of pottage. Same thing with Isaac and Ishmael . . . Isaac was the second born son but he was the heir . . . Ishmael was the firstborn son but he was cast out. Old Covenant Jews were older brothers, New Covenant Jews were younger brothers . . . and just like Jacob they "supplanted" the older and became the heir.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob . . ."

So it was spoken . . . so it was done!

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[HankD]

What Paul said about Israel being hardened until the fulness of the nations has come in is the same thing Jesus said: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

The nation of Israel was given a forty year period of grace after the beginning of the Gospel before the judgment of the Law was executed and the nation of Israel and the Mosaic Covenant came to an end with the destruction of the nation, the city, the temple and the cessastion of all the sacrifices and ordinances. But that could not happen until the Gospel had first been preached in all the world, to all nations.

Paul was talking in Romans 11 about those of Israel who were blind to the truth of the Gospel and was explaining why they were blinded and how long that blindness would last . . . until the great commission was fulfilled to all the nations . . . not just Israel. Then the end would come and the nation of Israel and the things of the Old Covenant would be destroyed.

But "all Israel" would be saved referring to those who were "Jacob," that is the remnant who were the elect, the younger brother, the new covenant Jews. The rest of the Jews were Esau . . . they sold their birthright to God's heavenly kingdom for a mess of pottage. Same thing with Isaac and Ishmael . . . Isaac was the second born son but he was the heir . . . Ishmael was the firstborn son but he was cast out. Old Covenant Jews were older brothers, New Covenant Jews were younger brothers . . . and just like Jacob they "supplanted" the older and became the heir.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob . . ."

So it was spoken . . . so it was done!

In Christ,
Deborah

The Great Commision is still happening.
New nations were both formed and discovered after the apostolic age passed with the death of John.

Christ has not yet returned and He said He wouldn't return until just before the end is "at the doors".

Matthew 24

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.​

Also "all these things" include are many events which have not yet occured:

Matthew 24

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

Many folks accept the literalness of Matthew 24:1-28 but want to "spiritualize" the rest of the passage which shows that the end can not happen until after the signs in the heavens has happened.​

The end of the age is yet to come.​

HankD​