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When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

Paleouss

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Greetings JonC
It could also be that Satan and 1/3 of the angels waged war in heaven and were cast out prior to Adam's sin
I'm exploring your logic here, or data that has you conclude such. I have a couple of questions...

1. What data in Revelation 12, I'm assuming you are referring to just Rev 12:4. What data suggests that this event in Rev 12:4 is the first fall of Satan?

2. What data in Genesis 3 suggests that the event in Genesis 3 is the first fall of Satan?

What I'm expecting you to reply is that there is no data in Rev 12:4 that would suggest this is the first fall of Satan. No data one doesn't infer anyway. But in Genesis 3?

Peace brother.
 

Paleouss

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I missed one of your questions...
Genesis 1:31 is certainly true but does it require that everything in both the invisible, immaterial world and the visible, material world were "very good" at the end of the Creation or is Gen. 1:31 only speaking of the material universe, etc.?
Genesis 1:1-31 is a single, unified story of creation told in six chronological days. It is distinct from the more zeroed in version in Genesis 2:4. In other words, Genesis 1 is clearly meant as one whole story.

In Genesis 1:31 it says, "Then God saw everything that He had made". Everything He had made includes the story from start to finish. From the start of the story it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...". So yes, the heavens (the invisible, immaterial world) is included in the one whole story (that is one whole account) and considered everything made "very good".

Peace to you brother
 

Paleouss

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God provoked Satan to jealousy by inserting Adam into the garden and giving him dominion.

Satan 'fell' by orchestrating 'the fall'.
I haven't been reading all of your posts, so sorry if that would have answered my question.

1. Do you hold a Post-Creation, Pre-Edenic Fall Theory?

2. Or do you hold a relatively simultaneous fall theory?

Peace brother
 

Scripture More Accurately

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if you are providing a counter to my point of Romans 5:12 or an additional "Amen". It seems like the former. If this is the case, then it also seems to be off the mark. If you remember, I was answering the question, "what doctrine would be affected by wrongly asserting exactly when Satan fell?l". In response to this I picked an example that was prior to the garden of Eden account (the Gap-theory).

So your point that the souls of angels do not die (nor do the souls of men, btw) has nothing to do with who brought sin and death into the world. If Satan brought sin and death into the world (regardless of whether he dies or not) prior to Adam and Eve, then mankind is only the "after the fact fix", or overlay, over the devastated earth already corrupted by sin and death. This would be counter to Romans 5:12.

Romans 5:12 basically tells us that physical death entered the cosmos strictly through Adam's sin. Any pre-Edenic theory undermines this by making physical death and natural evil a baseline feature of a previous, ruined fall.
Satan deceived Eve before she transgressed and ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan thus sinned against God before there was any human sin. Nonetheless, his doing so did not bring death into the material world.

Adam's sin that was subsequent to the sin of Satan and the transgression of Eve is what brought death into the material world (Rom. 5:12).
 
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kyredneck

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1. Do you hold a Post-Creation, Pre-Edenic Fall Theory?

IMHO. When Satan fell from favor is either when God perceived iniquity in him, or, when he instigated the fall, the latter being an actual act of rebellion. When he was kicked out came during the time of Christ and the apostles. IMO.

2. Or do you hold a relatively simultaneous fall theory?

Don't know what that is. Perhaps I answered it above. :)
 
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kyredneck

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Paleouss

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Greetings to you SMA. I hope your day is blessed.
Satan deceived Eve before she transgressed and ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Let's lay it out so we are on the same page. You essentially established...

1. Satan's outward act of rebellion (deception) occurred first.
2. Then Eve's outward act of rebellion occurred.

If we consider the story of the fall in Genesis 3, then the above is the chronological order. If we only consider the story and don't infer anything, then it would seem that the act of deception and the act of eating the apple were considered at the same time (its the same story). Yes, logically and chronologically Satan's was first. But the story makes no distinction, or emphasis on Satan's over Eve's but casts the story as a 'one whole' event. The interaction with Eve, one whole event. The cursing of the serpent and Adam and Eve at the same time, one whole event.

Now, you asked at the beginning of our conversation something like, what difference does it make that we have the exact moment in which Satan fell? The answer to that, imo, depends on the degree in which one is wrong. Let's look at two different degrees of thinking that "Satan fell prior to Eve". One that is simply moments before (strict reading) and the other millennia before (Gap-Theory).

A. One view might be that Satan's first act of rebellion was just prior to Eve's and then Adam's. Further, that Satan's internal corruption just preceded that act moments before. In this view, Revelation 12:4 happens possibly immediately after the curse of Genesis 3:14-15 (for Revelation 12:4 isn't any sooner than after Genesis 3:15 due to the reference in Rev 12:4 about throwing the stars to stand before the woman and devour her child).

In this view, assertion (A) and the story depicting the fall of Satan and Adam and Eve as essentially one event, holds to the way the biblical text (the story of Gen 3) presents the matter. The fact that logically Satan's act was first, doesn't really matter. For the story presents it as at-the-same-time event.

B. Another view might be that Satan fell significantly before the Genesis 3 account (Gap-Theory). This fall, according to the theory, devastated the physical world and caused widespread devastation. That devastation, according to the theory, was of the physical world. In other words, Satan's sin and rebellion (and his fallen angels) had brought sin into the physical world and devastated it.

In this view, assertion (B), Satan falls significantly earlier than the Eden account. Thereby not taking the Genesis story as one-whole-event fall. This significantly alters what would seem to be the natural narrative of the Bible that Adam brought sin into the cosmos...because it would have been Satan instead.

I have found, not true all the time though, that those who believe the Gap-theory have more of an external locus of control as apposed to those that think Adam, mankind, was the reason for the fall of our world. This latter group, having a more internal locus of control, focus more on personal responsibility and less on "the devil made me do it". (although clearly there is a spiritual warfare going on). I only bring this up to demonstrate a more practical influence rather than just theological.

In summery, if one is off a little bit...possibly not much matters. But if one is off a lot, well, things start to matter, imo.


Peace to you brother in Christ
 

Paleouss

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Greetings kyredneck. Peace to you.
IMHO. When Satan fell from favor
Can you define your "fell from favor"? I think this might be a common, unspoken gray area in which we all might think differently and not know it.

either when God perceived iniquity in him, or, when he instigated the fall, the latter being an actual act of rebellion
By giving the two options I'm assuming you are saying you hold to one of them but you see how the other could be possible so you don't want to discount it. Which one do you favor?

Do you agree that the story of Genesis 3 makes no distinction, or emphasis on Satan's deception of Eve but casts the story as a 'one whole event' of a fall?
Extrapolating, Satan was first, in Eden before Adam, It's logical to think jealousy played a big part in Satan's action.
Although I cannot out of hand discount jealousy, for logically it could follow and makes sense. Pride would seem to be a definite. 1Tim 3:6 talks about guarding against novices that might be puffed up with pride like the devil. Isaiah talks about Satan wanting to ascend into heaven and exalt his thrown over God's.

God giving Adam dominion of the earth, a person Satan might have seen as an inferior being, could have stirred sinful thoughts of jealousy that stemmed from his pride. That would be wondering into speculation on my part.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure
 

Van

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Greetings to all my brothers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for some clarity on this issue from others (thoughts, observations, critiques). To be revealing, I'm going to restrict considerations to the Holy Scripture only and to the words in it. In other words, I'm trying not to infer to much, if anything.

My dilemma/challenge is this... I don't see where the biblical text indicates that Satan fell "significantly prior" to the deception act in the Garden of Eden. In fact, it seems to me that the biblical text records Satan's first "sinful work" as being in the Garden. Although one might logically concede that the thought preceded the act, i.e., the sin of pride comes before the sinful act of deception.

First: Created in exalted position near God.
Second: Iniquity found in Satan (this timing seems to be the only speculative part).
Third: First act of Overt Rebellion recorded, the garden of Eden.
Fourth: Satan falls from grace and cursed.

The part I find most compelling is that Genesis 3:14 explicitly tells us "because you have done this" you are cursed. Satan was cursed because of his deception of Eve. To be cursed seems to suggest one is not already cursed. In the same context, Adam was cursed due to his first sin, Eve was cursed from her first sin. Both previously not cursed and in God's good grace.

Any verses, thoughts?

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6).
Excellent effort to promote non-speculative bible study!!!

1) I think I understand the position that "the accuser" came into existence, in heaven, after Adam and Eve were created.

2) I think God often chooses individuals for adversarial purposes who are well suited (predisposed) to fulfill their role.

3) I do not understand any alternate view, such as Satan was cast down before humanity was created. From what verses might this view be inferred?
 

Van

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Two actions occurred, Satan was cast down, and Satan was cast out. I the first case, cast down, Satan still had access to Heaven, in the second case, Satan's access to heaven was removed. The second case occurred after Christ died physically on the cross.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I'm dogmatic only about recognizing the reoccurring theme of jealousy in scripture, particularly from the 'firstborn' towards the 'second born'. Extrapolating, Satan was first, in Eden before Adam, It's logical to think jealousy played a big part in Satan's action.

This is Old Baptist preaching of which I found enlightening, didn't originate with me.
There are many reoccurring themes in Scripture. I do not believe it is wrong to recognize them. After all, pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Two actions occurred, Satan was cast down, and Satan was cast out. I the first case, cast down, Satan still had access to Heaven, in the second case, Satan's access to heaven was removed. The second case occurred after Christ died physically on the cross.
This is interesting. I never thought about it, much (still will not, much, as it is not important to me).

You make a good point.

"And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now have come salvation and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night."
 
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