When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

[Paleouss]

Greetings JonC

It could also be that Satan and 1/3 of the angels waged war in heaven and were cast out prior to Adam's sin

I'm exploring your logic here, or data that has you conclude such. I have a couple of questions...

1. What data in Revelation 12, I'm assuming you are referring to just Rev 12:4. What data suggests that this event in Rev 12:4 is the first fall of Satan?

2. What data in Genesis 3 suggests that the event in Genesis 3 is the first fall of Satan?

What I'm expecting you to reply is that there is no data in Rev 12:4 that would suggest this is the first fall of Satan. No data one doesn't infer anyway. But in Genesis 3?

Peace brother.

 

[Paleouss]

I missed one of your questions...

Genesis 1:31 is certainly true but does it require that everything in both the invisible, immaterial world and the visible, material world were "very good" at the end of the Creation or is Gen. 1:31 only speaking of the material universe, etc.?

Genesis 1:1-31 is a single, unified story of creation told in six chronological days. It is distinct from the more zeroed in version in Genesis 2:4. In other words, Genesis 1 is clearly meant as one whole story.

In Genesis 1:31 it says, "Then God saw everything that He had made". Everything He had made includes the story from start to finish. From the start of the story it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...". So yes, the heavens (the invisible, immaterial world) is included in the one whole story (that is one whole account) and considered everything made "very good".

Peace to you brother

 

[Paleouss]

God provoked Satan to jealousy by inserting Adam into the garden and giving him dominion.

Satan 'fell' by orchestrating 'the fall'.

I haven't been reading all of your posts, so sorry if that would have answered my question.

1. Do you hold a Post-Creation, Pre-Edenic Fall Theory?

2. Or do you hold a relatively simultaneous fall theory?

Peace brother

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I'm not sure if you are providing a counter to my point of Romans 5:12 or an additional "Amen". It seems like the former. If this is the case, then it also seems to be off the mark. If you remember, I was answering the question, "what doctrine would be affected by wrongly asserting exactly when Satan fell?l". In response to this I picked an example that was prior to the garden of Eden account (the Gap-theory).

So your point that the souls of angels do not die (nor do the souls of men, btw) has nothing to do with who brought sin and death into the world. If Satan brought sin and death into the world (regardless of whether he dies or not) prior to Adam and Eve, then mankind is only the "after the fact fix", or overlay, over the devastated earth already corrupted by sin and death. This would be counter to Romans 5:12.

Romans 5:12 basically tells us that physical death entered the cosmos strictly through Adam's sin. Any pre-Edenic theory undermines this by making physical death and natural evil a baseline feature of a previous, ruined fall.

Satan deceived Eve before she transgressed and ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan thus sinned against God before there was any human sin. Nonetheless, his doing so did not bring death into the material world.

Adam's sin that was subsequent to the sin of Satan and the transgression of Eve is what brought death into the material world (Rom. 5:12).

 

[kyredneck]

1. Do you hold a Post-Creation, Pre-Edenic Fall Theory?

IMHO. When Satan fell from favor is either when God perceived iniquity in him, or, when he instigated the fall, the latter being an actual act of rebellion. When he was kicked out came during the time of Christ and the apostles. IMO.

2. Or do you hold a relatively simultaneous fall theory?

Don't know what that is. Perhaps I answered it above.

 

[kyredneck]

I haven't been reading all of your posts,

That's OK, I don't read all of your's either...

 

[kyredneck]

I am saying we cannot be dogmatic about it.

I'm dogmatic only about recognizing the reoccurring theme of jealousy in scripture, particularly from the 'firstborn' towards the 'second born'. Extrapolating, Satan was first, in Eden before Adam, It's logical to think jealousy played a big part in Satan's action.

This is Old Baptist preaching of which I found enlightening, didn't originate with me.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings to you SMA. I hope your day is blessed.

Satan deceived Eve before she transgressed and ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Let's lay it out so we are on the same page. You essentially established...

1. Satan's outward act of rebellion (deception) occurred first.
2. Then Eve's outward act of rebellion occurred.

If we consider the story of the fall in Genesis 3, then the above is the chronological order. If we only consider the story and don't infer anything, then it would seem that the act of deception and the act of eating the apple were considered at the same time (its the same story). Yes, logically and chronologically Satan's was first. But the story makes no distinction, or emphasis on Satan's over Eve's but casts the story as a 'one whole' event. The interaction with Eve, one whole event. The cursing of the serpent and Adam and Eve at the same time, one whole event.

Now, you asked at the beginning of our conversation something like, what difference does it make that we have the exact moment in which Satan fell? The answer to that, imo, depends on the degree in which one is wrong. Let's look at two different degrees of thinking that "Satan fell prior to Eve". One that is simply moments before (strict reading) and the other millennia before (Gap-Theory).

A. One view might be that Satan's first act of rebellion was just prior to Eve's and then Adam's. Further, that Satan's internal corruption just preceded that act moments before. In this view, Revelation 12:4 happens possibly immediately after the curse of Genesis 3:14-15 (for Revelation 12:4 isn't any sooner than after Genesis 3:15 due to the reference in Rev 12:4 about throwing the stars to stand before the woman and devour her child).

In this view, assertion (A) and the story depicting the fall of Satan and Adam and Eve as essentially one event, holds to the way the biblical text (the story of Gen 3) presents the matter. The fact that logically Satan's act was first, doesn't really matter. For the story presents it as at-the-same-time event.

B. Another view might be that Satan fell significantly before the Genesis 3 account (Gap-Theory). This fall, according to the theory, devastated the physical world and caused widespread devastation. That devastation, according to the theory, was of the physical world. In other words, Satan's sin and rebellion (and his fallen angels) had brought sin into the physical world and devastated it.

In this view, assertion (B), Satan falls significantly earlier than the Eden account. Thereby not taking the Genesis story as one-whole-event fall. This significantly alters what would seem to be the natural narrative of the Bible that Adam brought sin into the cosmos...because it would have been Satan instead.

I have found, not true all the time though, that those who believe the Gap-theory have more of an external locus of control as apposed to those that think Adam, mankind, was the reason for the fall of our world. This latter group, having a more internal locus of control, focus more on personal responsibility and less on "the devil made me do it". (although clearly there is a spiritual warfare going on). I only bring this up to demonstrate a more practical influence rather than just theological.

In summery, if one is off a little bit...possibly not much matters. But if one is off a lot, well, things start to matter, imo.


Peace to you brother in Christ

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings kyredneck. Peace to you.

IMHO. When Satan fell from favor

Can you define your "fell from favor"? I think this might be a common, unspoken gray area in which we all might think differently and not know it.

either when God perceived iniquity in him, or, when he instigated the fall, the latter being an actual act of rebellion

By giving the two options I'm assuming you are saying you hold to one of them but you see how the other could be possible so you don't want to discount it. Which one do you favor?

Do you agree that the story of Genesis 3 makes no distinction, or emphasis on Satan's deception of Eve but casts the story as a 'one whole event' of a fall?

Extrapolating, Satan was first, in Eden before Adam, It's logical to think jealousy played a big part in Satan's action.

Although I cannot out of hand discount jealousy, for logically it could follow and makes sense. Pride would seem to be a definite. 1Tim 3:6 talks about guarding against novices that might be puffed up with pride like the devil. Isaiah talks about Satan wanting to ascend into heaven and exalt his thrown over God's.

God giving Adam dominion of the earth, a person Satan might have seen as an inferior being, could have stirred sinful thoughts of jealousy that stemmed from his pride. That would be wondering into speculation on my part.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[Paleouss]

When he was kicked out came during the time of Christ and the apostles. IMO.

Could you lay this reasoning and verses out for me (or direct me to the post you did)? We might be similar here.



Peace

 

[Van]

Greetings to all my brothers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for some clarity on this issue from others (thoughts, observations, critiques). To be revealing, I'm going to restrict considerations to the Holy Scripture only and to the words in it. In other words, I'm trying not to infer to much, if anything.

My dilemma/challenge is this... I don't see where the biblical text indicates that Satan fell "significantly prior" to the deception act in the Garden of Eden. In fact, it seems to me that the biblical text records Satan's first "sinful work" as being in the Garden. Although one might logically concede that the thought preceded the act, i.e., the sin of pride comes before the sinful act of deception.

First: Created in exalted position near God.
Second: Iniquity found in Satan (this timing seems to be the only speculative part).
Third: First act of Overt Rebellion recorded, the garden of Eden.
Fourth: Satan falls from grace and cursed.

The part I find most compelling is that Genesis 3:14 explicitly tells us "because you have done this" you are cursed. Satan was cursed because of his deception of Eve. To be cursed seems to suggest one is not already cursed. In the same context, Adam was cursed due to his first sin, Eve was cursed from her first sin. Both previously not cursed and in God's good grace.

Any verses, thoughts?

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6).

Excellent effort to promote non-speculative bible study!!!

1) I think I understand the position that "the accuser" came into existence, in heaven, after Adam and Eve were created.

2) I think God often chooses individuals for adversarial purposes who are well suited (predisposed) to fulfill their role.

3) I do not understand any alternate view, such as Satan was cast down before humanity was created. From what verses might this view be inferred?

 

[kyredneck]

a while back, you mentioned that Satan is like our jealous big brother.

NOT SO! You're confusing me with someone else, in a big way.

 

[kyredneck]

Could you lay this reasoning and verses out for me (or direct me to the post you did)? We might be similar here.



Peace

Sure. Scroll.

 

[Van]

Two actions occurred, Satan was cast down, and Satan was cast out. I the first case, cast down, Satan still had access to Heaven, in the second case, Satan's access to heaven was removed. The second case occurred after Christ died physically on the cross.

 

[JonC]

I'm dogmatic only about recognizing the reoccurring theme of jealousy in scripture, particularly from the 'firstborn' towards the 'second born'. Extrapolating, Satan was first, in Eden before Adam, It's logical to think jealousy played a big part in Satan's action.

This is Old Baptist preaching of which I found enlightening, didn't originate with me.

There are many reoccurring themes in Scripture. I do not believe it is wrong to recognize them. After all, pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

 

[JonC]

Two actions occurred, Satan was cast down, and Satan was cast out. I the first case, cast down, Satan still had access to Heaven, in the second case, Satan's access to heaven was removed. The second case occurred after Christ died physically on the cross.

This is interesting. I never thought about it, much (still will not, much, as it is not important to me).

You make a good point.

"And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now have come salvation and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night."

 

[Paleouss]

The rebellion (Satan and 1/3 of the Angles in heaven) was sin. Are you suggesting this happened after the fall of Adam?

Revelation Chapter 12

7​	And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

Greetings to all. Peace and hope to all this day.

I noticed on my scrolling to find kyredneck's position, this topic of "Did Satan and the 1/3 of the angels event happen after the fall of Adam?" The direct verses in qustion would seem to be Revelation 12:4, Revelation 12:7, and Genesis 3:14-15.

Here are the clues that I see...

1. The story of "the fall" in Genesis 3 is presented as one-whole-story. In other words, the story of Genesis 3 depicts a unified, at the same time, fall of its characters in Genesis 3. It does not distinguish a first but later only reveals a "responsible",i.e, Adam.
2. The three actors in the Genesis one-whole-story are the Serpent, Eve, and Adam.
3. Genesis 3:16-17 gives the first curse of Adam and Even.
4. Genesis 3:14 gives a first and only curse in the biblical text of Satan. It uses descriptive language to describe Satan's fall from grace (crawling on the belly and eating dust is an ancient poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace).

5. Genesis 3:15 is the prophecy; "I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Assuming we all agree that Genesis 3 uses typological, prophetic, and symbolic narrative language within historical narrative to illustrate a spiritual conflict to come and a prophetic proclamation of final victory...

Revelation 12:4 starts...

(A) "His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth -- [these are a third of the angels]
(B) "And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born"

The second part of Revelation 12:4 makes reference to "the woman" and "her Child". It would appear that Revelation 12:4 is making reference to Genesis 3:15. Further, it seems to imply that the dragon knows the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 (for he waits to devour this child that he could know nothing about prior to God informing him of His plans). If this is the case then Revelation 12:4 could be no sooner than after the giving of the prophecy by God in Genesis 3:15.

6. Therefore, Revelation 12:4 is the subsequent act of Satan after his first fall in Genesis 3. Satan, after deceiving Eve and falling in concert with Adam and Eve, possibly immediately influences (influence represented by "tail") a third of the angels (for the fall happened in the garden of Eden which is on the mountain of God) and immediately coordinates them to thwart God's prophecy (which Satan was just informed of). He immediately starts lying in wait, sowing bad seed, corrupting the spiritually faithful.

Now Revelation 12:7 might be where some might differ. Some see Rev 12:4 and 12:7 as different (as I do), and some see it as the same thing. I'll give a brief overview of Rev 12:7-17 and what I see at the moment.

7. Revelation 12:7; "7 And war broke out in heaven" [this was during the apostles time]...
8. Revelation 12:8; "8 nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer" [again, apostles time] (cf Job 1:6, 2:1)...
9. Revelation 12:9; "9 So the great dragon was cast out" [Jesus sees him fall like lightning from heaven] (cf Luke 10:18)...
10 Revelation 12:17; "17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." [the "woman" is the church or body of Chirst]


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[kyredneck]

Here are the clues that I see...

There's another 'clue' to when Satan was kicked out of heaven you left off;

7. Satan and the spirits had access to God in heaven all through OT times but not under the NC.

7. Revelation 12:7; "7 And war broke out in heaven" [this was during the apostles time]...
8. Revelation 12:8; "8 nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer" [again, apostles time] (cf Job 1:6, 2:1)...
9. Revelation 12:9; "9 So the great dragon was cast out" [Jesus sees him fall like lightning from heaven] (cf Luke 10:18)...
10 Revelation 12:17; "17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." [the "woman" is the church or body of Chirst]

Excellent!

'The Woman' is 'Jerusalem above' and is manifested in the temporal realm as the saints, both OT & NT.

Assuming we all agree that Genesis 3 uses typological, prophetic, and symbolic narrative language within historical narrative to illustrate a spiritual conflict to come and a prophetic proclamation of final victory...

Lol, don't assume that from the Dispies. Their 'literal hermeneutic' tends to be their blindfold.

 

[JonC]

Greetings to all. Peace and hope to all this day.

I noticed on my scrolling to find kyredneck's position, this topic of "Did Satan and the 1/3 of the angels event happen after the fall of Adam?" The direct verses in qustion would seem to be Revelation 12:4, Revelation 12:7, and Genesis 3:14-15.

Here are the clues that I see...

1. The story of "the fall" in Genesis 3 is presented as one-whole-story. In other words, the story of Genesis 3 depicts a unified, at the same time, fall of its characters in Genesis 3. It does not distinguish a first but later only reveals a "responsible",i.e, Adam.
2. The three actors in the Genesis one-whole-story are the Serpent, Eve, and Adam.
3. Genesis 3:16-17 gives the first curse of Adam and Even.
4. Genesis 3:14 gives a first and only curse in the biblical text of Satan. It uses descriptive language to describe Satan's fall from grace (crawling on the belly and eating dust is an ancient poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace).

5. Genesis 3:15 is the prophecy; "I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Assuming we all agree that Genesis 3 uses typological, prophetic, and symbolic narrative language within historical narrative to illustrate a spiritual conflict to come and a prophetic proclamation of final victory...

Revelation 12:4 starts...

(A) "His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth -- [these are a third of the angels]
(B) "And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born"

The second part of Revelation 12:4 makes reference to "the woman" and "her Child". It would appear that Revelation 12:4 is making reference to Genesis 3:15. Further, it seems to imply that the dragon knows the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 (for he waits to devour this child that he could know nothing about prior to God informing him of His plans). If this is the case then Revelation 12:4 could be no sooner than after the giving of the prophecy by God in Genesis 3:15.

6. Therefore, Revelation 12:4 is the subsequent act of Satan after his first fall in Genesis 3. Satan, after deceiving Eve and falling in concert with Adam and Eve, possibly immediately influences (influence represented by "tail") a third of the angels (for the fall happened in the garden of Eden which is on the mountain of God) and immediately coordinates them to thwart God's prophecy (which Satan was just informed of). He immediately starts lying in wait, sowing bad seed, corrupting the spiritually faithful.

Now Revelation 12:7 might be where some might differ. Some see Rev 12:4 and 12:7 as different (as I do), and some see it as the same thing. I'll give a brief overview of Rev 12:7-17 and what I see at the moment.

7. Revelation 12:7; "7 And war broke out in heaven" [this was during the apostles time]...
8. Revelation 12:8; "8 nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer" [again, apostles time] (cf Job 1:6, 2:1)...
9. Revelation 12:9; "9 So the great dragon was cast out" [Jesus sees him fall like lightning from heaven] (cf Luke 10:18)...
10 Revelation 12:17; "17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." [the "woman" is the church or body of Chirst]


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

Where do you see this fitting in? -

And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now have come salvation and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night."

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Let's lay it out so we are on the same page. You essentially established...

1. Satan's outward act of rebellion (deception) occurred first.
2. Then Eve's outward act of rebellion occurred.

If we consider the story of the fall in Genesis 3, then the above is the chronological order. If we only consider the story and don't infer anything, then it would seem that the act of deception and the act of eating the apple were considered at the same time (its the same story). Yes, logically and chronologically Satan's was first. But the story makes no distinction, or emphasis on Satan's over Eve's but casts the story as a 'one whole' event. The interaction with Eve, one whole event. The cursing of the serpent and Adam and Eve at the same time, one whole event. . . .

A. One view might be that Satan's first act of rebellion was just prior to Eve's and then Adam's. Further, that Satan's internal corruption just preceded that act moments before. In this view, Revelation 12:4 happens possibly immediately after the curse of Genesis 3:14-15 (for Revelation 12:4 isn't any sooner than after Genesis 3:15 due to the reference in Rev 12:4 about throwing the stars to stand before the woman and devour her child).

In this view, assertion (A) and the story depicting the fall of Satan and Adam and Eve as essentially one event, holds to the way the biblical text (the story of Gen 3) presents the matter. The fact that logically Satan's act was first, doesn't really matter. For the story presents it as at-the-same-time event. . . .

Saying, "The story makes no distinction, or emphasis on Satan's over Eve's . . .," does not establish that correctly noting that Satan sinned prior to Eve who sinned prior to Adam is of no importance.

Romans 5:12 says that death entered into the world through the sin of Adam--Satan's sin did not bring death into the world. Because we know with certainty that Satan's sin in the Garden that preceded the transgression of Eve and the sin of Adam did not bring death into the world, there is no necessity to hold that had Satan fallen prior to what he did in the Garden, death necessarily would have come into the material universe.

In other words, holding that Satan's fall preceded his sinful deception of Eve in the Garden does not require us to have to believe in any form of "Gap theory" where humans had sinned and died prior to what took place in the Garden of Eden.

Again, I categorically reject any and all forms of the "Gap theory." I also find no necessity that a pre-Garden fall of Satan would have to have resulted in any direct consequences for the material world.