Where Does Faith Come From II

[Revmitchell]

Then I'd appreciate your pointing out how I am mistaken, by telling me what those Scriptures mean to you, and telling me what they say in your own words.
My standard practice is to lay out the words literally and grammatically, except in passages that I know are to be taken allegorically or figuratively, which are few.

I'll tell you what. When you actually ever do that I will respond in kind. Up till now that has not been your standard.

 

[Revmitchell]

Respectfully,
I'll stand by my usage of Ephesians 2:8...I see faith as the gift, it being the nearest noun to the word, "that", in, "that not of yourselves" meaning, "that not originating or from yourselves".
Since I see it saying we are saved by grace through faith, then either the gift of God is faith, or "saved by grace through faith"...the entire phrase.

"That" meaning the subject which is salvation. Even John Calvin disagreed with you:

“And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.”

John Calvin’s Commentary on Ephesians, Ephesians 2 Commentary - John Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible

I tend to go with the former, because if it were not a miraculous gift, then it would not characterize the Lord's faith in His Father when He was on the cross, suffering for my sins and thinking He had been abandoned by His Father.

Well I mean that is your choice but one has nothing to do with the other.

A miraculous faith, authored and finished on my behalf both in His earthly life, and on the cross, and presented to me as a gift.
That is the "faith of God's elect"...the faith "of Christ"...something far beyond mere human "faith", in that, it doesn't ever stop trusting in God for anything, and accompanies the believer even to his or her death;
Ever trusting and never forsaking God, like Job.
Like David.
Like Samson.
Like everyone in Hebrews 11.

Well I am not seeing any breakdown of verses here but I will go ahead and respond in the manner in which you wrote this. I see everything we have as miraculous and a gift. Even my very next breath. In fact scripture is clear that God sustains us every moment. So in that line of thinking faith is a gift. However, it is not given effectually. Our faith is a response to the gospel as is repentance. Our faith is to be in the finished work of Christ. It is not to be in how well we live our lives to out weigh the bad or how many Biblical laws we follow. Only the finished work of Christ. Christ finished that work I did not nor could I. So regardless of what response God requires of us then it is all of God. I do not trust in what I have done I trust in what Christ completed.

 

[Van]

Van, I'd like to address these points again ( which I'm aware the subjects of have been batted back and forth to quite some extent ), but I doubt it will change your position.
It does, however, give me some practice digging into Scriptures for myself and it also helps to sharpen my own "sword":

1) Matthew 13 has many things to share with believers, and most are done in parables.
He makes this ( what I consider to be a profound and spiritual ) statement very early on, after speaking a parable :
" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?" ( Matthew 13:10 )

What was His answer?
" He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." ( Matthew 13:11 )

To them it is not given...
So, right here I see a God who is selective in who He reveals Himself and His truth to, and not willing to reveal Himself to.
The very first time I ran into this in my reading , I thought, " This cannot be!".

That was when I decided to dig deeply to find if there were other places in Scripture that stated this "concept"...I didn't have far to go:
" All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]." ( Matthew 11:27 )

No man knows the Son but the Father, and no man knows the Father but the Son...and adds, to whomseover the Son will reveal.

A little farther:
" When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." ( Matthew 16:13-17 )

For a person to "see" the Father, He must be revealed to them by the Son.
In order to get the "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" ( Matthew 11:15 and many others ), they must be given to a person.
In other words, the Lord has to open a person's understanding, so that they might understand the word of God ( Luke 24:45 ).

Otherwise, the carnal mind that is at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-8 ), cannot and will not understand it.
They are "natural" ( as opposed to spiritual ) men ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

So, the reason the Lord speaks to some in parables ( to hide the truth from them ) and make it known to others, is because God is selective when it comes to who He reveals Himself to.
The parables of in Matthew 13 are designed to reveal truth to the spiritual, regenerate mind, and conceal it from the carnal mind.

In the parable of the tares, I see Satan sowing his own children, the children of disobedience, in among the "wheat" of Christ's field.
They are false believers who not only do not have the Spirit of God, but are not saved.
In the parable of the sower, I see 4 types of "soil", 3 of which are bad and will not produce fruit.
What fruit?
Please see Galatians 5:22-23.
The Lord explains both of these parables in plain speech, to His disciples in Matthew 13:18-23, and Matthew 13:36-43...in other words, he gives the reader the plain meaning of them.

Put it all together, and there are false believers among the true...they neither have the Spirit nor genuinely desire the things of God.
Their hearts have never been changed, and they will never understand Scripture for themselves, because they do not have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see".

They are the ones the Lord will say, "I never knew you" in Matthew 7:21-23.
I hope this helps.

No, this view is not helpful because it is mistaken. God's revelation was timed for His purpose, and so the gospel was presented (1) first to the Jews, then (2) to the Gentiles.

Several times in scripture we see Jesus managing the timing of His revelation, such as in Matthew 13. This does not support the idea that given the opportunity, the lost can hear and understand. If everyone suffered from "total spiritual inability" Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables. Ditto for God needing to harden hearts in Romans 11. Your assertion is invalid.

And you did not mention the "Great Commission."

 

[Van]

Thank you for proving my point. You either can't or won't exegete the passage.[/QUOTE]
Reset

Scripture does not say "at any time." But scripture does present many examples where the lost do seek God such as Matthew 23:13!

And note folks, how "without the work of the Spirit" has been added to my statements. But no quote will be provided. So yet another strawman construct to deflect from the truth.

Did Christ perform miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit? Yes
Was His life recorded in the gospels by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ? Yes
Are all those saved by God first drawn by God? Yes
Is the gospel the power of God for salvation? Yes

Pay no attention to those who misrepresent scripture, and posters.

 

[Reformed1689]

Scripture does not say "at any time." But scripture does present many examples where the lost do seek God such as Matthew 23:13!

For the umpteenth time... Please show how this passage in its full context properly exegeted shows lost people seeking God.

 

[Dave G]

Faith is not a fruit of the Spirit "faithfulness" is a fruit of the Spirit.

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." ( Galatians 5:22-23 )

The actual word on the page is, "faith", not "faithfulness".
In the Greek, the word is "πίστις" which is transliterated into English as, "pistis", and can mean "faith", "faithfulness", "belief", "conviction of the truth of".

I am disappointed in your changing scripture here. Not good.

If you look closely at the word in the AV ( which I believe that you have agreed in the past is the word of God ), the word is "faith", not "faithfulness" as many other English translations list it.
I didn't change the word.
It's exactly the same in my Bible as it is in any Bible that translates it that way.

"Faith" is the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Van]

For the umpteenth time... Please show how this passage in its full context properly exegeted shows lost people seeking God.

Reset

Matthew 23:13 plainly says what it says. Just read it, folks. People were seeking God, they were actually in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven, proving "total spiritual inability," is a bogus assertion. And they were blocked, proving irresistible grace is a bogus assertion.

 

[Dave G]

I'll tell you what. When you actually ever do that I will respond in kind. Up till now that has not been your standard.

Mark,
It has never been my intention to reply to you outside of my own honesty and with a willingness to reply without being as clear and concise as I can.
I believe that I have given Scripture to support my position many times.

If you feel that I have been dishonest in any way, or that I have not exercised a standard that includes laying out passages in my own words as I see them on the page, then I cannot help that.
I am firmly committed to answering questions about doctrine that are posed to me, and am also resolved to showing anyone who asks, why I believe what I do and how it relates to the word of God.

I must politely disagree with the underlined, because I feel that anyone who reads my posts will come away with the impression that I am anything but brief when it comes to my explanations.

I also want you to know that any time you feel like drawing out, in detail, why you believe what you believe from Scripture, I would very much be interested in seeing it.
From my observations during the short time I've been here, I've never seen you post the Scriptures for themselves and then, word-for-word tell anyone else what they mean to you and how they relate to other passages in the same detail that some others here have.

When you are willing to do that, then I will appreciate it very much, as that would give me more insight into why you hold to what you do.

Until then, I will probably always misunderstand why you use passages the way that you do.

 

[Dave G]

"That" meaning the subject which is salvation. Even John Calvin disagreed with you:

I'm sure he and I disagree on a great many things.
I hold him in no authority, nor does he define my understanding of God's word.

While I happen to agree ( in great part ) with his view of how salvation works, I am by no means beholding to everything he wrote or taught.
Infant baptism, a-millennialism, and his view of the atonement are but a few of the areas in which he and I disagree.

I don't agree with Andrew Fuller on some things, either, but I think that that is for another thread.

Well I am not seeing any breakdown of verses here but I will go ahead and respond in the manner in which you wrote this. I see everything we have as miraculous and a gift. Even my very next breath. In fact scripture is clear that God sustains us every moment. So in that line of thinking faith is a gift. However, it is not given effectually.

I appreciate your comments here, and can see that you mean what you say.
However, my intention was not to ask you to break anything down in the quote you've listed above...
Rather, I've broken down verses in other posts in this thread, and I encourage you to do the same, if you are so inclined.

Once again, I disagree with the underlined, and believe that I have expressed myself in a way as to show the reader that, Scripturally, there is an answer for why some believe and why some do not, and the answers are biblical.
Also, that faith is a gift given "effectually", just as God's Spirit working in a person is "effectual" and not given wholesale to just anyone:

" For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." ( 1 Thessalonians 2:13 )

Here I clearly see that believers in Christ receive ( welcome ) the word of God, not as the word of men, but in truth, as the word of God Himself.
It also works "effectually" ( designed or intended to create an effect ) in them that believe.

So, to me, anything that is stated to work effectually in a specific group, does so "effectually", because of the Holy Spirit's involvement.

Anytime the Spirit of God works in a person, and does not work in another, then it is either "effectual" or not.
Man's will plays no decisive part in the whole affair, only God's does ( James 1:18, John 1:13 ), and the Spirit goes where He wills ( John 3:8 ) making "converts" of as many as the Lord our God shall "call" ( Acts of the Apostles 2:39 ) and adding to the body of Christ as many as He thinks should be saved ( Acts of the Apostles 2:47 ).

In addition, per James 1:18, He uses His word to "beget" ( bestow the new birth to ) the believer.
Without His usage of it, it is like a sword with no arm...it falls on "deaf ears" that are rebellious, stiff-necked and hard-hearted towards Him.
No amount of urging, preaching, intimidating, cajoling, admonishing or convincing will ever work on a person unless God's Spirit is involved and actively working in the hearts and minds of that person.



The Gospel only produces genuine believers where His Spirit "tills the ground".
The "seed" only bears fruit if the Holy Spirit is present and active.

 

[Dave G]

To wrap things up:

Given that not all men have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ),
That only those that are ordained to eternal life, believe ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ),
Only those that are foreknown and predestinated are "called" ( Romans 8:29-30 ),
Only Christ's sheep believe ( John 10:26 ) and "hear" His voice ( John 10:27 ),
It has to be "given" to a person to believe on Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ) and to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 13:10-11 ),
The "natural man" receives ( welcomes ) not the things of the Spirit of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ),
The preaching of the cross is, to them that perish, foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ) but to us which are saved it is the power of God,
Jesus only gives eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him ( John 17:2),
No man can come unless he is drawn ( John 6:44 ) nor can he come unless it is given to them by the Father to do so ( John 6:65 ),
People must have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15, Matthew 13:9, Matthew 13:43, Mark 4:9, Mark 4:23, Luke 8:8 and several others ),
Jesus has to open a person's "understanding" to understand the Scriptures ( Luke 24:45 ),
God is selective in who He reveals Himself to ( Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22 ),
God has to open a person's heart so that they will attend to the Gospel ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ),
Faith is described as the "faith of God's elect" ( Titus 1:1 ), His chosen ( 1 Peter 2:9 ),
That true faith is only delivered ( not "offered" ) to the saints ( Jude 1:3 ) as well as the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) and not the means whereby they can gain the gift of eternal life,

...then faith is but one of the many gifts ( Ephesians 2:8 ) of a loving God to His children, and no man exhibits it apart from the miraculous and merciful act of their Heavenly Father who loves them and provides everything "necessary" for them to have an eternal relationship with Him...
It is also a necessary part of navigating this earthly life that is full of trials and tribulations, and ensures that the believer abides in Him, knowing that He is their Deliverer and will never leave them nor forsake them ( Hebrews 13:15 ).


If anyone reading this is looking for a "magical", all-encompassing "verse" that states unequivocally what "saving faith" really is and where it comes from, I daresay you will not find it.
However, the answers are in the pages of His word, and I urge you to obey this command given to Timothy:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

Check His word, check my work and satisfy yourself whether what is being stated is either true or false.


This is my final reply in this thread.


I wish all of you God's blessings, and to you, Mark:
I wish you well, sir, and may you always look to Him in your hour of need because truly, we have a wondrous Saviour who can be counted on to keep His every promise.

 

[Rockson]

If you feel that I have been dishonest in any way, or that I have not exercised a standard that includes laying out passages in my own words as I see them on the page, then I cannot help that.
I am firmly committed to answering questions about doctrine that are posed to me, and am also resolved to showing anyone who asks, why I believe what I do and how it relates to the word of God.

I must politely disagree with the underlined, because I feel that anyone who reads my posts will come away with the impression that I am anything but brief when it comes to my explanations.

Ha. I actually do like you Dave I think you're a nice friendly guy. It does make me smile though when before leaving a thread you throw down everything you've got of Calvinists talking points on so many topics that should be other threads and leave it to Non Calvinists to dig their way out of them. It's like you've said, "There! I've said my piece! My whole piece!" I don't mind myself voluminous posts but posts that stick with the exact topic of the thread would be nice and even a tad bit more gentlemanly. What do you think?

 

[Revmitchell]

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." ( Galatians 5:22-23 )

The actual word on the page is, "faith", not "faithfulness".
In the Greek, the word is "πίστις" which is transliterated into English as, "pistis", and can mean "faith", "faithfulness", "belief", "conviction of the truth of".



If you look closely at the word in the AV ( which I believe that you have agreed in the past is the word of God ), the word is "faith", not "faithfulness" as many other English translations list it.
I didn't change the word.
It's exactly the same in my Bible as it is in any Bible that translates it that way.

"Faith" is the fruit of the Spirit.

Romans 10:17 says it comes by hearing, If the word was faith in that verse there would be a contradiction. So its not possible the author intended faith. The likely and logical translation is faithfulness.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (ESV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (NIV)

22But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! (NLT)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23, NKJV)

 

[Revmitchell]

Mark,
It has never been my intention to reply to you outside of my own honesty and with a willingness to reply without being as clear and concise as I can.
I believe that I have given Scripture to support my position many times.

If you feel that I have been dishonest in any way, or that I have not exercised a standard that includes laying out passages in my own words as I see them on the page, then I cannot help that.
I am firmly committed to answering questions about doctrine that are posed to me, and am also resolved to showing anyone who asks, why I believe what I do and how it relates to the word of God.

MY point is you posted as if that is your practice each and every time and then you want to hold me to that standard. If you go back through your posts you will see that I have basically posted in kind for the most part. What you have not done is to hold your responses to what you asked of me each and every time. My post stands.

 

[Reformed1689]

Reset

Matthew 23:13 plainly says what it says. Just read it, folks. People were seeking God, they were actually in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven, proving "total spiritual inability," is a bogus assertion. And they were blocked, proving irresistible grace is a bogus assertion.

More deflection.

 

[Dave G]

Dear reader,

I realize that in post #110, I expressed my intention not to reply further on the subject of where faith comes from, at least in this thread, but I feel that RevMitichell has brought up an important point that needs to be addressed from not only the Bible ( which I believe I have already done ), but from the Greek text.

Mark has made the statement:

Romans 10:17 says it comes by hearing, If the word was faith in that verse there would be a contradiction. So its not possible the author intended faith. The likely and logical translation is faithfulness.

I contend that the word translated, "faith", which is described as a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22 ( and is translated "faithfulness" in many or most of today's modern English translations ), is the same word or concept as that found in Romans 10:17.

Upon further examination of the Greek, I have discovered that the word, "πίστις", transliterated into English as "pistis" ( Strong's G4102 ), is indeed the same, exact word found in Galatians 5:22 as that found in Romans 10:17.
Therefore, when I examine the text closely, "pistis" ( Strong's 4102 ) comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Then, carrying this observation over to the other passages I have used in the defense that true faith comes from God and God alone, I have made these discoveries:

"Pistis" is a fruit of the Spirit described in Galatians 5:22.
"Pistis" is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen in Hebrews 11:1.
"Pistei", a form of "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is what was delivered to the saints in Jude 1:3.
"Pisteos", a form of "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is what was authored and finished by Jesus Christ in Hebrews 12:2.
"Pisteos", a form of "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is the gift of God found in Ephesians 2:8.
"Pistei", a form of "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is described as the faith "of ( originating from ) Christ" in Galatians 2:20.
"Pisteos", a form of "pistis" and the same exact word in the Greek found in and Hebrews 12:2, is the faith "of ( originating from ) Christ" found in Galatians 3:22.
"Pistin", a form of the Greek word "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is the faith that came and was revealed to the believer in Galatians 3:23.
"Pisteos", a form of the word "pistis" and the exact Greek word found in Hebrews 12:2 as being authored and finished by Jesus Christ, is what is come to the believer in Galatians 3:25.
"Pisteos", the exact word from Hebrews 12:2 ( being authored and finished by Jesus Christ ), is what believers are the children of God by, in Galatians 3:26.

Rather than be completely exhaustive ( which I don't believe that I have even come close to ) in showing that the same "faith" that is authored and finished by Jesus Christ, is a gift of God in Ephesians 2:8, is the evidence of a person's salvation in Hebrews 11:1, and is what comes by "hearing" in Romans 10:17, I will cut this short, knowing that most readers dislike dealing with long and involved "walls of text", which, it seems, that I may be becoming famous for.


As I see it, the same word, or a variation of it, is what is found when carefully comparing the Greek text.
The same word found to be a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22, is what "comes" by "hearing" in Romans 10:17.

I leave the final decision to you, the reader.

Is true biblical faith a gift of God to only certain people ( believers, God's elect ), or is it available to all men that hear the Gospel presentation and they can then "put their faith" in Christ given the right set of conditions?

I believe the former.

Who it is created by, how it comes to that person, who it is delivered ( purposefully given ) to, and what it is the evidence of ( not means whereby salvation is "acquired" ), who possesses it by the power of the Holy Spirit, who does not have it because it was never given to them, and many other connected and vital issues, I believe that I have established, at least in part.

If any of us have true faith, it is because God, in His grace, has given it to us.
He deserves what is rightfully His, the "fruit" of our lips, and it is all to the glory of His grace.

 

[Dave G]

Yet again I ask you, the reader, your indulgence in allowing me to reply to this thread... since I have already stated that I was making my final reply in post #110:

So its not possible the author intended faith.

With respect, the "author" was the Holy Spirit, and I feel that what was intended is the perfect transmission of a perfect concept...
Faith ( "Pistis", "Pisteos", "Pistei" ) that can be linked solidly and completely back to God, and that men have no part in acquiring or even being presented with. apart from the selective choice of the Lord....who has mercy on compassion upon whom He wills ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-16 ).

Another point that Mr. Mitchell has made and that I feel should be brought up here, even though I realize that this thread is not the correct place to do so, is this:

The likely and logical translation is faithfulness.

...to which I say that the translators of God's word are fully within their right to do so, and it may very well be logical to many for others to translate "pistis" differently, depending on usage.
Personally, I would be as consistent as possible for several reasons...one of which is the fact that I would have no intention, given my precarious position before God and the possibility of mis-handling His precious word, to translate it using anything other than the best word or group of words available in the target language.

RevMitchell further gives a comparison of Romans 10:17 here:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (ESV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (NIV)

22But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! (NLT)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23, NKJV)

..and I re-emphasize that the translators of other English translations of God's word are fully within their right to translate "pistis", "pisteos", and "pistei" ( Strong's 4102 ) into whatever English word they wish.

But I also think that it introduces confusion among the readers of differing translations in the English, when they see the word, "faith" in one, being rendered as "faithfulness" in another.

Case-in-point:
" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ( Romans 10:17, AV )

Here we see the same faithfulness in translating "pistis" into the English word, "faith" in the other English translations that Mark has listed above:

" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." ( Romans 10:17, ESV )
" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ." ( Romans 10:17, NIV )
" So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ( Romans 10:17, NKJV )

Yet, the translators chose to render "pistis", the same exact word in Galatians 5:22 as being shown to be a fruit of the Spirit, as "faithfulness" in that same passage.
Why they did this, I cannot say...
But in my final analysis, I make this connection:



In the AV, which has enjoyed a place among believers as the very words of God in the English for some 400 years now, the word "faith" ( Strong's 4102, "pistis" ) is found not only in Romans 10:17, but in Galatians 5:22 as a fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Rockson]

Dear reader,

I realize that in post #110, I expressed my intention not to reply further on the subject of where faith comes from, at least in this thread, but I feel that RevMitichell has brought up an important point that needs to be addressed from not only the Bible ( which I believe I have already done ), but from the Greek text.

Mark has made the statement:


I contend that the word translated, "faith", which is described as a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22 ( and is translated "faithfulness" in many or most of today's modern English translations ), is the same word or concept as that found in Romans 10:17.

Upon further examination of the Greek, I have discovered that the word, "πίστις", transliterated into English as "pistis" ( Strong's G4102 ), is indeed the same, exact word found in Romans 10:17 as that found in Galatians 5:22.
Therefore, when I examine the text closely, "pistis" ( Strong's 4102 ) comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Then, carrying this observation over to the other passages I have used in the defense that true faith comes from God and God alone, I have made these discoveries:

"Pistis" is a fruit of the Spirit described in Galatians 5:22.

Well sorry Dave but I'd say you're trying to force an unnecessary interpretation onto the text.

"pistis" doesn't just mean the faith of God but also a character trait of being faithful. Matt 24:45, 1 Cor 4:2, Eph 6:21 and many others all use the same greek word as well and clearly it's talking about character.

There's an argument to be made as well although it might be hard for some to accept that when it talking about the "fruit of the Spirit" it was really meaning the fruit of the spirit (small S) as in that which comes out of the born again human spirit, and notice I said born again human spirit. The fruits of the spirit (Spirit) are the things one should see in the character of a believer.

If any of us have true faith, it is because God, in His grace, has given it to us.

Well yes but God has provided for all the same benefit. Shouldn't the very fact that the gospel is to be preached to all tell us that? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God or in other words God through his covenant declarations assures all listeners they can be restored. Anything else is a distorted gospel.

He deserves what is rightfully His, the "fruit" of our lips, and it is all to the glory of His grace.

And I agree Dave but let's not be thanking him for that which he wouldn't want thanks for. Using an extreme analogy (and yes I agree that it is) one shouldn't be thanking God for him helping them rob a bank. Because something took place doesn't mean God was involved.

 

[Dave G]

In the context of the OP ( and hopefully this will be my final reply ) :

As such, true faith, the "faith that saves" ( a misnomer in my opinion, because faith does not save, it is the evidence of one's being saved ) can only be present in someone who actually and already has the indwelling Spirit ( or at least is "predestined" to having had Him sealing ( Ephesians 1:13 ) them ), therefore it is not present in all men ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), nor is it available outside of God's giving it ( Philippians 1:29 ) to someone as a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

Furthermore, "pistis" is the same, exact word found in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where it states that God has chosen the believer to salvation through ( not because of ) belief ( "pistis" ) of the truth.

A closely associated form of "pistis", the word, "pisteuete" ( which is a negative-tense form of "pistis" and rendered as "believe-not" in John 10:26 ), tells me that people do not "faith", "faithfulness" or believe, because they are not of Christ's sheep...not because they have some ability within themselves to "place their faith" or "pistis" in Christ, or to even be presented with a choice once the Gospel is heard by a person.

To be true, "pistis" or "faith" would have to be made available to anyone who heard the words of God, when according to 2 Thessalonians 3:2, that simply is not the truth of the matter.
What's more, "pisteuein", "to-be-believing", the present tense active form of "pistis", is given in the behalf of Christ to the believer ( Philippians 1:29 ), not to the unbeliever.
To be clear, those that have truly believed on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, have been given not only the privilege, but the "pistis" to do so.

Therefore, only God's children, those who already have "pistis", ( faith and belief ) can exercise it and perform things by it.
Once again, faith is the gift of God given to those that "faith", "believe", "faithfulness" in the verb sense...

Seem confusing?
Not when I realize that every good gift and every perfect gift, like true faith, authored and finished ( "perfected" ) by Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ), comes down from God ( James 1:17 ).
With those things, we thereby glorify the God of our salvation and His Son, who loved us and gave Himself for us.


Thank you to all for allowing me the privilege to post my conclusions, and may God be pleased to bless your studies richly.

 

[Van]

Before we fail to look at scripture, let us analyze these assertions:

1) That only those that are ordained to eternal life, believe ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ),

2) Only those that are foreknown and predestined are "called" (Romans 8:29-30 ),

3) Only Christ's sheep believe ( John 10:26 )

All three assertions are obviously false.

Here is the key phrase from Acts 13:48, "and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. The Greek word translated "appointed" refers to an agreement by mutual consent. Thus those who agreed and consented with Paul's direction to eternal life believed. Here we see an ambiguous translation used as the basis of mistaken interpretation.

Next Romans 8:28-30 uses an ambiguous word (translated called) but meaning "positionally sanctified."
Rom 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called [positionally sanctified] according to His purpose.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

and these whom He predestined, He also called [positionally sanctified]; and these whom He called [positionally sanctified], He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

In summary this passages addresses the sequence of actions taken by God according to His redemption plan. God first formulated His redemption plan before creation, thus He "foreknew" the target group of His redemption plan, not individually but corporately. So we were foreknown corporately. And the plan also included that those redeemed would be conformed to the image of His Son, thus we were not predestined to be saved, but those saved are then predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Finally, when God puts us in Christ (positional sanctification) He justifies us (our sin burden - what God holds against us - is removed, and He glorifies us as His spiritually born anew children.

Lastly, John 10:26 says “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. If a lost person is "of My sheep" that means they are open to God's word, and would be receptive to the gospel. The verse is not referring to those already saved, because those would be "My sheep" not "of My sheep." So once again you see the pattern of using ambiguous passages to pour man-made additions into the text.

 

[Revmitchell]

Dear reader,

I realize that in post #110, I expressed my intention not to reply further on the subject of where faith comes from, at least in this thread, but I feel that RevMitichell has brought up an important point that needs to be addressed from not only the Bible ( which I believe I have already done ), but from the Greek text.

Mark has made the statement:


I contend that the word translated, "faith", which is described as a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22 ( and is translated "faithfulness" in many or most of today's modern English translations ), is the same word or concept as that found in Romans 10:17.

Upon further examination of the Greek, I have discovered that the word, "πίστις", transliterated into English as "pistis" ( Strong's G4102 ), is indeed the same, exact word found in Galatians 5:22 as that found in Romans 10:17.
Therefore, when I examine the text closely, "pistis" ( Strong's 4102 ) comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Then, carrying this observation over to the other passages I have used in the defense that true faith comes from God and God alone, I have made these discoveries:

"Pistis" is a fruit of the Spirit described in Galatians 5:22.
"Pistis" is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen in Hebrews 11:1.
"Pistei", a form of "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is what was delivered to the saints in Jude 1:3.
"Pisteos", a form of "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is what was authored and finished by Jesus Christ in Hebrews 12:2.
"Pisteos", a form of "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is the gift of God found in Ephesians 2:8.
"Pistei", a form of "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is described as the faith "of ( originating from ) Christ" in Galatians 2:20.
"Pisteos", a form of "pistis" and the same exact word in the Greek found in and Hebrews 12:2, is the faith "of ( originating from ) Christ" found in Galatians 3:22.
"Pistin", a form of the Greek word "pistis" and classified under Strong's 4102, is the faith that came and was revealed to the believer in Galatians 3:23.
"Pisteos", a form of the word "pistis" and the exact Greek word found in Hebrews 12:2 as being authored and finished by Jesus Christ, is what is come to the believer in Galatians 3:25.
"Pisteos", the exact word from Hebrews 12:2 ( being authored and finished by Jesus Christ ), is what believers are the children of God by, in Galatians 3:26.

Rather than be completely exhaustive ( which I don't believe that I have even come close to ) in showing that the same "faith" that is authored and finished by Jesus Christ, is a gift of God in Ephesians 2:8, is the evidence of a person's salvation in Hebrews 11:1, and is what comes by "hearing" in Romans 10:17, I will cut this short, knowing that most readers dislike dealing with long and involved "walls of text", which, it seems, that I may be becoming famous for.


As I see it, the same word, or a variation of it, is what is found when carefully comparing the Greek text.
The same word found to be a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22, is what "comes" by "hearing" in Romans 10:17.

I leave the final decision to you, the reader.

Is true biblical faith a gift of God to only certain people ( believers, God's elect ), or is it available to all men that hear the Gospel presentation and they can then "put their faith" in Christ given the right set of conditions?

I believe the former.

Who it is created by, how it comes to that person, who it is delivered ( purposefully given ) to, and what it is the evidence of ( not means whereby salvation is "acquired" ), who possesses it by the power of the Holy Spirit, who does not have it because it was never given to them, and many other connected and vital issues, I believe that I have established, at least in part.

If any of us have true faith, it is because God, in His grace, has given it to us.
He deserves what is rightfully His, the "fruit" of our lips, and it is all to the glory of His grace.

Dear Reader,

While it is true that the word "pistis" is used as "faith in some passages, what has been misrepresented above is the use of Pistis. As with many words both in English and in Greek, the same word and takes on different meanings depending on context. While Pistis is used to convey the conviction of truth in many passages, that is not the only way in which it is used. In fact it is used in other passages to convey fidelity, faithfulness or the character of one who can be relied on according to the Greek Lexicon. The author of the post above has unfortunately painted a picture that it has to be used the exact same way every time it is used. In Romans 10:17 Pistis is used to convey the idea of conviction of truth while in Galatians 5:22 it is used to convey the idea of fidelity or someone who can be relied on.

The person who believes in Romans 10:17 is not yet regenerated and therefore receives Pistis (belief) from the word of God. In Galatians 5:22 the person receiving the fruit of the Spirit is regenerated and is receiving Pistis (fidelity, faithfulness) from the Spirit because they are saved. We need to be careful with God's word.