Where Is Free Will?

[InTheLight]

Jn 12:32

Can I take this one, from the Calvinist perspective?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

"Draw" does not mean what you think it means. "Draw" means effectually drag.
"All men" does not mean what you think it means. "All men" means the elect.

 

[Reformed1689]

Jn 12:32
I know what the response will be; "all" really means all the elect.

No, it means all people groups. Look at the context of the chapter. The Greeks had come looking for Jesus. The context is that the disciples would not have expected Jesus to be accepting of this but Jesus said he draws all men, in other words all types of men, to himself. It in no way means every person.

 

[Reformed1689]

Can I take this one, from the Calvinist perspective?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

"Draw" does not mean what you think it means. "Draw" means effectually drag.
"All men" does not mean what you think it means. "All men" means the elect.

No, it doesn't mean all of the elect. In this verse all is referring to all people groups Gentile and Jew. Context matters.

 

[Reformed1689]

@InTheLight

And what words have been redefined? If anything, my post indicated you guys are the ones changing the meaning of the word draw in the underlying Greek. You know the Bible wasn't written in English right?

 

[loDebar]

No, it doesn't mean all of the elect. In this verse all is referring to all people groups Gentile and Jew. Context matters.

Show the context and explanation

 

[InTheLight]

@InTheLight

And what words have been redefined? If anything, my post indicated you guys are the ones changing the meaning of the word draw in the underlying Greek.

So, dozens and dozens of Bible translations toiled over by Greek scholars for decades have incorrectly translated this verse for centuries.

You know the Bible wasn't written in English right?

You don't say?!

 

[Reformed1689]

Show the context and explanation

I already did read a few posts up.

So, dozens and dozens of Bible translations toiled over by Greek scholars for decades have incorrectly translated this verse for centuries.



You don't say?!

Did I say they incorrectly translated the verse? No. Perhaps you should do a word study on the English word "Draw". Here, I will make it easy for you: Definition of DRAW

Then, do a study on the underlying Greek word helkyo. Then tell me which definition of draw best matches the Greek definition.

 

[Reynolds]

I already did read a few posts up.



Did I say they incorrectly translated the verse? No. Perhaps you should do a word study on the English word "Draw". Here, I will make it easy for you: Definition of DRAW

Then, do a study on the underlying Greek word helkyo. Then tell me which definition of draw best matches the Greek definition.

The best scholars, the ones who make a living translating Bibles, seem to think Draw, not drag, is the appropriate English word.

 

[Reformed1689]

The best scholars, the ones who make a living translating Bibles, seem to think Draw, not drag, is the appropriate English word.

I give you the same challenge I gave In the Light. Apparently you do not want to take the challenge because it blows your theory out of the water.

 

[37818]

Can I take this one, from the Calvinist perspective?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

"Draw" does not mean what you think it means. "Draw" means effectually drag.
"All men" does not mean what you think it means. "All men" means the elect.

Not if you understand Jesus' responce as to what it counters, John 11:48-53.

 

[Revmitchell]

What amazes me about calvies is their ability to read minds and determine unspoken motives of people.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

When Saul was on the road to Damascus and Jesus struck him blind, was Jesus drawing Saul or dragging him to do His will?

When Jonah exercised his rebellion (freewill?) and ended up in the belly of the fish, was God drawing Jonah or dragging him?

These are testimonies to God's willingness to have His will be done.

While my personal experiences are not as dramatic as these, they were as effective in God reveling His will for me, His elect.

To God be the glory!

 

[Reformed1689]

What amazes me about calvies is their ability to read minds and determine unspoken motives of people.

What prompted this post?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

You need to do a study on the underlying Greek for draw. You are actually wrong on this one.

I'm not going to get into a debate about definitions of a single word. Context determines the meaning. For example, "I want to go out hunting and bag a squirrel. I will put it in a bag and bring it to my mother-in-law, the old bag."

Let's let Scripture determine the context of Scripture.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you [in verse 44], that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (KJV)

Does the context here mean to "drag" someone to salvation or to divinely "invite" someone to be saved?

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (KJV)
Does this passage imply a "dragging"?

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (KJV)
Or this?

Scripture is it's own best commentary.

 

[InTheLight]

When Saul was on the road to Damascus and Jesus struck him blind, was Jesus drawing Saul or dragging him to do His will?

When Jonah exercised his rebellion (freewill?) and ended up in the belly of the fish, was God drawing Jonah or dragging him?

These are testimonies to God's willingness to have His will be done.

While my personal experiences are not as dramatic as these, they were as effective in God reveling His will for me, His elect.

To God be the glory!

You've found some special examples of God dragging people to do his will. You forgot Mary and John the Baptist.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

When Saul was on the road to Damascus and Jesus struck him blind, was Jesus drawing Saul or dragging him to do His will?

What verse(s) are you asserting that says Paul was dragged against his will to be saved and do the will of God?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

When Jonah exercised his rebellion (freewill?) and ended up in the belly of the fish, was God drawing Jonah or dragging him?

Jonah clearly exercised his free will. In return, God clearly allowed Jonah to face the consequences of his disobedient decision. The longsuffering of God gave Jonah time to repent. Or, do you think it took God three days and nights to "drag" Jonah out of the whale's belly?

 

[Reformed1689]

I'm not going to get into a debate about definitions of a single word. Context determines the meaning. For example, "I want to go out hunting and bag a squirrel. I will put it in a bag and bring it to my mother-in-law, the old bag."

Of course you would take that attitude. Unfortunately words mean things. It is a pity you won't be honest about the fact that definitions matter and help define the context.

Let's let Scripture determine the context of Scripture.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you [in verse 44], that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (KJV)

Does the context here mean to "drag" someone to salvation or to divinely "invite" someone to be saved?

If you look at verse 44 it is not an invitation. It is a dragging a drawing. Much like drawing blood. Do you just invite the blood to come? No you are forcefully taking it.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (KJV)
Does this passage imply a "dragging"?

It actually doesn't even really go along with this topic.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (KJV)
Or this?

Scripture is it's own best commentary.

Exactly, those that hear. The ones that are drawn by the Father are the ones that hear. You are cherry picking verses that really have no bearing on the subject and you ignore verses that clearly imply more than just an invitation.

 

[Revmitchell]

For the record Pastor Bob is one of the most honest people on this board. His posts are full of integrity and always well reasoned.

 

[Reformed1689]

For the record Pastor Bob is one of the most honest people on this board. His posts are full of integrity and always well reasoned.

Apparently not when it comes to the fact that words mean things.