Where Is Free Will?

[JonC]

May I ask an aside question.

Theres quite a few calvinists in here and I'm getting all sorts of different vibes on how we're describing free will.

So may I ask.

In calvinism. Did God predestinate and predetermine that Adam would fall in the garden.

Or

did Adam do it of his own free choice and God simply forknew the events and called them acceptable.

Did God move the chess piece or oberserve the chess board.

When I read piper he sounds like God moved the chess piece. But I'm getting different impressions from the crowd in here.

All the best,

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In Calvinism God decreed the Fall.

In Reformation Arminianism God ordained the Fall (not that it should occur but that in occurring it served His will).

 

[Gorship]

In reformed circles, you have Supra and Infra(Sub) Lapsarian views. I lean towards Supra....and here’s why.

The most atrocious thing that happened in history was the crucifixion of our Lord. God did not just idly set by and watch it unfold, but was the driving force behind it. From the capture, the mocking, spiting, tearing the beard from His face, the crown of thorns pressed upon His head, being passed back and forth from Herod to Pilate, the beating, and crucifying. That’s what foreknowledge in Acts 2:23 is referring to. Foreknowledge in that verse is prognosis, and in this instance it’s means pre-arrangement. It’s also used in regards to the elect in 1 Peter 1:2.

Then look at Joseph. Sold into slavery. Gains favor with Potiphar. His wife tries to fool around with him and he leaves. He leaves his garment, she lies and tells Potiphar he tried to force himself on her. Gets jailed. Interprets two dreams. Gains freedom ~ 2 years later after interpreting Pharaoh’s dream. Ends up saving his family from the famine. Proclaims that what his brothers did for evil, God intended it for good.

In both of these, God was the driving force.

Now on to Adam. God planted the TOK in the Garden and gave Satan access to it. If this was not part of His plan, then what purpose did it accomplish? The most wicked acts done by fallen ppl all fall with God’s decreed will. If these wicked acts don’t serve a purpose, then these have no purpose at all.

Many ppl tend to lean towards deism in some way. Deism teaches there is a god who created all we see. Starts it spinning then sets back and watches things unfold. Here’s why I say ppl lean towards deism...ppl say God allows things to happen. That’s saying He steps backs and allows it to happen. That’s deism at worst, deistic at best.

God decreed the fall and used others to make sure it happened. Also, remember it was God who sent a evil spirit upon Saul. God stirred up Pul’s and Tilgath-pilneser‘s heart to carry away some of Israel’s ppl.

I really appreciate the well written response.

Just so I am clear.

God moved the chess piece in regards to the fall.

One last time for clarity

God stirred Adam to go and eat

Would that be fair to say represents your views?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I really think it's important to understand the axiom where we start.

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[SovereignGrace]

I really appreciate the well written response.

Just so I am clear.

God moved the chess piece in regards to the fall.

One last time for clarity

God stirred Adam to go and eat

Would that be fair to say represents your views?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I really think it's important to understand the axiom where we start.

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God used Satan to do this. He is the devil, but he is still God’s devil. Take a look at primary and secondary causes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I really appreciate the well written response.

Just so I am clear.

God moved the chess piece in regards to the fall.

One last time for clarity

God stirred Adam to go and eat

Would that be fair to say represents your views?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I really think it's important to understand the axiom where we start.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Let me ask you this...did God know with 100% certainty Adam would do what He did before He did it(the fall I mean)?

 

[loDebar]

In Calvinism God decreed the Fall.

In Reformation Arminianism God ordained the Fall (not that it should occur but that in occurring it served His will).

neither,

God knew of any sin before it happens. Even Satan and the others. Sin did not originate here. Creation is for the redemption of sinners. Mankind is the method where one death of one can offer pardon to all.

Think about what you believe and how it fits together.


Does the Masters cause you any interruption? Are you close ?

 

[Gorship]

God used Satan to do this. He is the devil, but he is still God’s devil. Take a look at primary and secondary causes.

So God used Satan to deceive Adam to go and eat and cause the fall?

Was Adam free to reject this offer?

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[Reynolds]

God used Satan to do this. He is the devil, but he is still God’s devil. Take a look at primary and secondary causes.

James 1:13 says God tempts no man. God actively using Satan to tempt Adam would violate this.

 

[Gorship]

Let me ask you this...did God know with 100% certainty Adam would do what He did before He did it(the fall I mean)?

I think God knew Adam would fall of his free choices prior to creation but God went ahead with creating life anyway.

I certainly don't claim to be a scholar and you are free to redicule my beliefs all day.

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[SovereignGrace]

I really appreciate the well written response.

Just so I am clear.

God moved the chess piece in regards to the fall.

One last time for clarity

God stirred Adam to go and eat

Would that be fair to say represents your views?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I really think it's important to understand the axiom where we start.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.[James 1:13-14]

Take that and piggyback this to it...

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Eve lusted after this tree. Remember, they were created sinless, but not infallible. They were not created without the ability to sin. When Eve ate of TOK, she then handed it to Adam. Both knew the warning given them, yet went ahead and rebelled. They are responsible for what they did. The devil didn’t make them do it. God didn’t make them do it. They made themselves do it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think God knew Adam would fall of his free choices prior to creation but God went ahead with creating life anyway.

I certainly don't claim to be a scholar and you are free to redicule my beliefs all day.

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Yes, God knew He would, correct. So, if God knew he’d do it, then Adam had to do it, correct?

 

[JonC]

neither,

God knew of any sin before it happens. Even Satan and the others. Sin did not originate here. Creation is for the redemption of sinners. Mankind is the method where one death of one can offer pardon to all.

Think about what you believe and how it fits together.


Does the Masters cause you any interruption? Are you close ?

A little. I'm about five miles from the course. My wife and son are headed to D.C. to visit friends that week (I'll be stuck in the traffic).

 

[SovereignGrace]

James 1:13 says God tempts no man. God actively using Satan to tempt Adam would violate this.

I never said God tempts anyone. God used Satan for that.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

 

[Gorship]

Yes, God knew He would, correct. So, if God knew he’d do it, then Adam had to do it, correct?

Negative. Forknowing is not determining. I can watch a child behave and not influence the child. God simply is able to see events ahead of time.

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[SovereignGrace]

I think God knew Adam would fall of his free choices prior to creation but God went ahead with creating life anyway.

I certainly don't claim to be a scholar and you are free to redicule my beliefs all day.

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My Brother, as God is my witness, I was not ridiculing your beliefs. I asked that question to further the discussion. My apology for coming across that way.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Negative. Forknowing is not determining. I can watch a child behave and not influence the child. God simply is able to see events ahead of time.

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Again, if God knew Adam would do it, he had to do it. Just like with Saul of Tarsus. If God knew he’d choose to follow Him, then Saul of Tarsus would have to follow Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Negative. Forknowing is not determining. I can watch a child behave and not influence the child. God simply is able to see events ahead of time.

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Yes, He sees them ahead of time. If I could see a bus crash 500 years from now, then that bus would crash at that time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Negative. Forknowing is not determining. I can watch a child behave and not influence the child. God simply is able to see events ahead of time.

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Foreknowledge in Acts of the Apostles 2:23 means pre-arrangement.

 

[Reynolds]

I never said God tempts anyone. God used Satan for that.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

God actively using is God "doing."

 

[Gorship]

Yes, He sees them ahead of time. If I could see a bus crash 500 years from now, then that bus would crash at that time.

For sure, but I think the disconnect here is when you say (as a calvinist)

God used Satan.


I hear influenced, moved or willed.

God may forknow future events and have plans to make them good.



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[SovereignGrace]

God actively using is God "doing."

He used others to fulfill His decreed will. He was active in Job’s afflictions by sicing Satan on him.