Where Is Free Will?

[Gorship]

My Brother, as God is my witness, I was not ridiculing your beliefs. I asked that question to further the discussion. My apology for coming across that way.

I didn't mean at that time, going forward I'm sure my views won't be very intellectual compared to the rest of everyone.

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[SovereignGrace]

For sure, but I think the disconnect here is when you say (as a calvinist)

God used Satan.


I hear influenced, moved or willed.

God may forknow future events and have plans to make them good.



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Foreknowledge in Acts of the Apostles 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:3 means pre-arrangement. It’s a Greek noun.

Foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is a verb. It means God is actually doing something in foreknowing His elect.

Either way, God is the force behind both.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I didn't mean at that time, going forward I'm sure my views won't be very intellectual compared to the rest of everyone.

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I won’t ridicule you. I’ll be on my best behavior.

 

[Gorship]

Foreknowledge in Acts of the Apostles 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:3 means pre-arrangement. It’s a Greek noun.

Foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is a verb. It means God is actually doing something in foreknowing His elect.

Either way, God is the force behind both.

See this where I struggle cause it truly appears to me you want it both ways.

Did God cause the fall or did God allow the fall.

He knew it would happen either way, but did God move the pieces.

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[SovereignGrace]

God actively using is God "doing."

Who brought up Job’s name?

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”[Job 1:6-8]

God asked Satan where he came from and he answered Him. Then God mentioned Job. It’s like, sic’em Satan!

 

[SovereignGrace]

See this where I struggle cause it truly appears to me you want it both ways.

Did God cause the fall or did God allow the fall.

He knew it would happen either way, but did God move the pieces.

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Brother, God uses primary and secondary causes to fulfill His decreed will. Please look these two things up. God doesn’t do evil Himself, but He has used evil to fulfill His decreed will. He used Satan to afflict Job. He sent an evil spirit upon Saul. He stirred up the hearts of two kings to attack Jews. He caused Joseph to be sold into slavery so that He could save them from the famine later on.

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.[Romans 8:28]

God does not just use good things, but both good and bad, and works them to good for His ppl.

 

[SovereignGrace]

See this where I struggle cause it truly appears to me you want it both ways.

Did God cause the fall or did God allow the fall.

He knew it would happen either way, but did God move the pieces.

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Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die!” But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.[Job 2:9-10] Job knew very well that his afflictions were from God. He knew his adversity came from God.

For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,[Philippians 1:29]

Both the ability to believe in God and suffering for Him are both granted/given by God.

 

[InTheLight]

Yes, God knew He would, correct. So, if God knew he’d do it, then Adam had to do it, correct?

God looked down through the corridors of time and saw that Adam would sin, so he was predestined to sin. Got it.

 

[InTheLight]

Again, if God knew Adam would do it, he had to do it. Just like with Saul of Tarsus. If God knew he’d choose to follow Him, then Saul of Tarsus would have to follow Him.

Again, God looked down through the corridors of time and saw that Saul would choose to follow him.

 

[InTheLight]

Yes, He sees them ahead of time. If I could see a bus crash 500 years from now, then that bus would crash at that time.

So God looks down through the corridors of time and sees that a bus will crash, so he predetermined that it would crash.

Similarly, God looks down through the corridors of time and sees who will believe in Him, so he predestines them to be elect. Right? Why not?

 

[Gorship]

Brother, God uses primary and secondary causes to fulfill His decreed will. Please look these two things up. God doesn’t do evil Himself, but He has used evil to fulfill His decreed will. He used Satan to afflict Job. He sent an evil spirit upon Saul. He stirred up the hearts of two kings to attack Jews. He caused Joseph to be sold into slavery so that He could save them from the famine later on.

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.[Romans 8:28]

God does not just use good things, but both good and bad, and works them to good for His ppl.

Who moved the evil agent to commit evil is what I'm trying to get.

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[Reynolds]

He used others to fulfill His decreed will. He was active in Job’s afflictions by sicing Satan on him.

Really? Active or permissive?

 

[Reynolds]

Who brought up Job’s name?

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”[Job 1:6-8]

God asked Satan where he came from and he answered Him. Then God mentioned Job. It’s like, sic’em Satan!

No, that's like you are "sic" in the head. God was telling Satan He had a servant who Satan couldn't defeat.

 

[Reformed1689]

The absolute source and essence of any Good act is God. God is absolutely required a person can't even breathe one breathe without GOD doing the drawing.

you [edited] reveal in your error compared to your own error.

You are correct to believe in free will, but do not call yourself Calvinist, and then disagree with common Calvinist beliefs

It is like another poster using your name

And what do I disagree on with common Calvinist belief? You have yet to point this out. You just say that I do. (Although I think you don't even know what Calvinist beliefs actually are.)

They say Adam had free will until he sinned , now does not .
I disagree.

Nobody on the Calvinist side say there is no free will. Stop peddling this misinformation.

 

[JonC]

Yes, God knew He would, correct. So, if God knew he’d do it, then Adam had to do it, correct?

When I was in school that was called "cheating".

 

[loDebar]

And what do I disagree on with common Calvinist belief? You have yet to point this out. You just say that I do. (Although I think you don't even know what Calvinist beliefs actually are.)



Nobody on the Calvinist side say there is no free will. Stop peddling this misinformation.

yes, many do,, look up previous threads

 

[Reformed1689]

yes, many do,, look up previous threads

Not going to waste my time trying to clear myself from a false, unsubstantiated, no proof, accusation.

 

[loDebar]

God gives us free will in order to love him without coercion. In this free will we can also disobey or not. We are condemned already and God provides us the opportunity to understand repentance and salvation. The Holy Spirit brings us to the point od decision making and in free will we make a choice. We have consequences of our decisions, Salvation is only from God, offered to all and those who choice to accept the pardon through Christ are saved.

If there is no free will, God created sin and chose to send some to hell while saving others, Both statements must be false according to scripture.

from a thread long ago.

 

[Reformed1689]

from a thread long ago.

wow, you quoted yourself. Good job.

 

[loDebar]

I did, on purpose.. Read it and realize if you do not believe in free will. you blame God for sin.