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Who are, "Those thou hast given to me..."

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jbh28

Active Member
Yes, and this is a perfect example of the word games you play.
how is that a word game? I don't care anything about John Calvin. I was simply asking for a quote. No word games. I mean both statement very literally. you made a statment about Calvin that was not in the original quote. I asked for a quote. But as I've statement many times, Calvin is not a real concern of mine. I have 0 of his books. Never read him other than a quote.

I insult you because you insult people's intelligence.
Even if it were true, you shouldn't be insulting. Stop making excuses for the childish behavior. And no, I don't insult people's intelligence.
You really believe yourself very clever and able to fool people with your games. The only one you are fooling is yourself. If your doctrine were true, no such games would be necessary.
Another insult form you. 0 quotes of an actual word game.

You did it right here in this thread. You have comprehension skills, you know what Calvin said.
again no. Never play word games. Looks like just a smoke screen by you.(not to mention a lie.)

I don't hate Calvinists, but I do hate Calvinism. If I hated you I would let you continue in this gross error.
Very well and good. But if you truly loved your brothers in Christ you would, yes, not let people continue in error but would not insult.

Again, I insulted you because
...excuses, excuses, excuses.
you would not admit that Calvin believed God caused sin when it was plain from his quotes that he did. I had to actually provide a quote where Calvin used the word "cause" in connection with sin. This is the word games you play.
again, no word games. It's called you were interpreting something Calvin said as "caused" which wasn't valid. God determining something will happen doesn't mean he causes something to happen. God can determine something will happen by allowing it to happen. He doesn't have to necessarily cause it to happen for it to happen. Again, no word games. Just a simple difference in interpretation. Calvin's original quote never said anything about God causing sin.

Calvinists are believers, but they believe a false doctrine that makes God the author of sin, even if they deny it.
I don't believe God is the author of sin and neither does any Calvinist that I know of here. There may be an exception or two, but I know at least for me God is not the author of sin. God uses sin for his purposes(death of Christ, selling of Joseph in slavery) but that doesn't mean God is the author of sin.
And I know your response, "No Calvinist says God is the author of sin". Again, word games. If God CAUSES all things that come to pass, then he CAUSES sin, because sin certainly comes to pass.
I don't believe God directly causes all things. I believe God has determined all things, but that doesn't equal God causing.
What kills me is that an intelligent fellow like you could believe such obvious contradiction. I can't figure out why anyone would want to do that, I really can't.
I don't believe any contradiction as I don't believe God causes people to sin nor does God temp people to sin.
 

jbh28

Active Member
I do not think that Winman has tried to deliberately insult anyone.
even Winman admited that he insulted me

I now ask that you submit a quote from Winman wherein he denies that Calvinists are believers.
I don't believe Winman has ever said that nor did I say or imply that he did. Not even winman thought that. I was making a statement of common ground.
I think no one should impugn yours generally either JB....You are a fair individual yourself...Win did rightly and fairly quote Calvin...that was all he was trying to convey.

Yes, winman as far as I can tell quoted Calvin correctly. He just added to his original quote by a misinterpretation of determine equals causes which isn't true.
 

Winman

Active Member
I do not think that Winman has tried to deliberately insult anyone.

Yes...Calvin did say as much...but you were denying that he did...It is well within Win's rights to supply the reference when he did, in fact, do so, you denied that he did.

Neither do we.....

He supplied it....

I now ask that you submit a quote from Winman wherein he denies that Calvinists are believers. Or wherein he expresses what you are calling "hate" for them...please quote Winman expressing "hate" for Calvinists, or please provide the quote from him where he denies that they are "believers". I have never seen him do such a thing.

Winman is far more gracious than MOST I have seen on BB...this includes myself...I do not agree with him on some issues, but his posting is generally impeccable.....He puts up with continued and relentless disagreement, and yet his posts are generally non-compromising and yet irenic....I wish I had such patience....I have yet to see a Calvinist with his honesty and patience. I wish I posted as he does...I am learning from him. I am learning how to debate....and how to be both non-compromising and yet meek and peacable at the same time...I don't completely agree with him soteriologically....but I truly think NO ONE...can impugn his method here. I think no one should impugn yours generally either JB....You are a fair individual yourself...Win did rightly and fairly quote Calvin...that was all he was trying to convey.

Well, thank you for the compliments, but I do get very frustrated with some, especially JBH. He is actually very intelligent and a very able debater, but he does play with words. He would be an excellent attorney or politician. :thumbs:

I rarely pay attention to Icon, he parrots others, and like Calvin simply accuses anyone who disagrees with him of being a heretic or reprobate. This is the lowest form of debate. He assumes he is always correct.

As for my quotes, I got most of them from Calvin's writings themselves and provided the links to the page where I got them.

I have seen that site Examining Calvinism and think it is very good for refuting Calvinism. I have seen many other sites besides.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JBH,
Do not think that team Jihad is really doing any real study here....they are using sites like this one who seek to do a hatchet job on Calvin or anyone else who believes the truth. Notice the writer does not post the whole quote, just cuts it all up....
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/ac_sin.html


Calvin writes: “Everything is controlled by God’s secret purpose, and nothing can happen except by his knowledge and will.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Bk. 1, Ch. 16, Sect. 3, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 4, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “He has plenty of reasons for comfort as he realises that the devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want....” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch.17, Sect. 10, emphasis mine)







Calvin writes: “First, it must be observed that the will of God is the cause of all things that happen in the world; and yet God is not the author of evil.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)






Calvin writes: “For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)



Calvin writes: “Further what I said before is to be remembered, that since God manifests His power through means and inferior causes, it is not to be separated from them.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.170, emphasis mine)






Calvin writes: “But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.171-172, emphasis mine)
Calvin writes: “Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173, emphasis mine)
Calvin writes: “Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “For the man who honestly and soberly reflects on these things, there can be no doubt that the will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.177, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “But of all the things which happen, the first cause is to be understood to be His will, because He so governs the natures created by Him, as to determine all the counsels and the actions of men to the end decreed by Him.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.178, emphasis mine)








Calvin writes: “But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.176, emphasis mine)





Calvin writes: “But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179, emphasis mine)

Calvin states: “They again object, Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? If so, when they perish in their corruptions they do nothing else than suffer punishment for that calamity, into which, by the predestination of God, Adam fell, and dragged all his posterity headlong with him. Is not he, therefore, unjust in thus cruelly mocking his creatures? I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself. But it does not forthwith follow that God lies open to this charge.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, section 4, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “Thinking that the difficulty here may be resolved by a single word, some are foolish enough serenely to overlook what occasions the greatest ambiguity; namely, how God may be free of guilt in doing the very thing that He condemns in Satan and the reprobate and which is to be condemned by men.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “We learn that nothing happens but what seems good to God. How then is God to be exempted from the blame to which Satan with his instruments is liable?” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.180, emphasis mine)



Team Jihad delights in ascribing sin and blame to God rather than to man, because of their golden calf of free will. Your instincts were correct JBH.:wavey::thumbs::thumbs:

Actually...No one takes that site very seriously...except perhaps, you Calvinists...it is entertaining sometimes...and does add some rhetorical flair....but no one really takes the bulk of their opinions from it. I guess, except some mal-informed Calvinists. No Arminian is quite foolish enough to put a lot of stock in it. You still appear to not understand your opposition Icon. Sorry, you don't. You simply do not understand the difference between a confessional Arminian and a Calvinist...In all your studies...you have missed or ignored the difference between the two. Most PHD's in Calvinism have majored in "mis-representation of Arminianism". You do such repeatedly as does your home-boy "reformed baptist"
 
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Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I never play word games. never. again, you insult. Even if I did play word games, it wouldnt' be right for you to insult.


Look, Calvin believed God caused sin. He believed that Satan or men could not even conceive an evil thought unless God commanded it, just as God commanded the Universe and it sprang into existence.


ok. I don't care anything about Calvin. I was simply asking for a quote. But as usual you show your unchristlike character and insult. You lie about me and say I play word games. But you can't quote one place where I've ever played any word games. You need to stop hating Calvinist. Calvinist are believers. You disagree, but that doesn't mean you should insult other believers in Christ. If you don't believe they are believers, you shouldn't insult them either and should be giving them the gospel. Either way, you like to resort to insulting others.

Wow, finally caught on ...but you can't allow this ilk to destabilize your sence tranquility. The calm man, having learned how to govern himself, knows how to adapt himself to others; and they, in turn, reverence his spiritual understanding & feel that they can learn from him & rely upon him. The more tranquil a man becomes, the greater his success, his influenced, his ability to communicate God's perfect will for our lives. Brother, be that light that shines for the world to see! :godisgood:
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I rarely pay attention to Icon, he parrots others, and like Calvin simply accuses anyone who disagrees with him of being a heretic or reprobate. This is the lowest form of debate. He assumes he is always correct


I pay attention to all who insist on blaming God for mans sin.This is wickedness that is always to be opposed...not embraced:wavey:
 

Winman

Active Member
Yes, winman as far as I can tell quoted Calvin correctly. He just added to his original quote by a misinterpretation of determine equals causes which isn't true.

I didn't misinterpret anything, I showed you directly from Calvin's own words that he believed God CAUSED all things including evil.

It is actually you that has misinterpreted Calvin. Look at the quote that Icon provided;

“When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8,

Calvin was speaking of Augustine here, and he agreed with Augustine. He said when Augustine used the term "permission" he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary CAUSE of EVERYTHING.

Augustine didn't really believe God permits man to sin at all, he believed God CAUSED men to sin. What he is really saying is that unless God permits a man to sin, he is unable to sin. This is what Calvin also said when he said that the devil and men cannot CONCEIVE of evil unless God permits, NO, that he COMMANDS it.

So, Calvin and Augustine redefined what permit or permission means as something determined and caused by God.
 

jbh28

Active Member
I didn't misinterpret anything, I showed you directly from Calvin's own words that he believed God CAUSED all things including evil.

It is actually you that has misinterpreted Calvin. Look at the quote that Icon provided;



Calvin was speaking of Augustine here, and he agreed with Augustine. He said when Augustine used the term "permission" he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary CAUSE of EVERYTHING.

Augustine didn't really believe God permits man to sin at all, he believed God CAUSED men to sin. What he is really saying is that unless God permits a man to sin, he is unable to sin. This is what Calvin also said when he said that the devil and men cannot CONCEIVE of evil unless God permits, NO, that he COMMANDS it.

So, Calvin and Augustine redefined what permit or permission means as something determined and caused by God.

So you understand command equals cause? Is that correct?
 

Winman

Active Member
I pay attention to all who insist on blaming God for mans sin.This is wickedness that is always to be opposed...not embraced:wavey:

What a laugh, it is Calvinists and Calvinism that has been accused of making God the author of sin for centuries. Some of the quotes I provided of Calvin were in response to Georgius who accused Calvin of making God the author of sin. This was 450 years ago!

No one has EVER accused non-Cals or Arminians of teaching that God is the author of sin.

The reason Calvinism is accused of making God the author of sin is because it is so. You can deny it all you want, but that is the logical end of Calvinism. Calvin actually said God was the author of sin, I provided the quote.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Actually...No one takes that site very seriously...except perhaps, you Calvinists...it is entertaining sometimes...and does add some rhetorical flair....but no one really takes the bulk of their opinions from it. I guess, except some mal-informed Calvinists. No Arminian is quite foolish enough to put a lot of stock in it. You still appear to not understand your opposition Icon. Sorry, you don't. You simply do not understand the difference between a confessional Arminian and a Calvinist...In all your studies...you have missed or ignored the difference between the two. Most PHD's in Calvinism have majored in "mis-representation of Arminianism". You do such repeatedly as does your home-boy "reformed baptist"

:laugh::laugh::laugh: Not to worry HOS.....a few months ago everyone said there are no arminians on BB....I just watch and see who blames God for sin....
I see you, winman, skan, and van.....have voluntered recently.

keep moving the target...good idea....

You still appear to not understand your opposition Icon. Sorry, you don't

I understand doctrinal truth as a plumbline.....so when you and the others deviate.....you give yourselves away...lol.
You increasing offer less scripture.....just more and more snide comments.
I understand!
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
how is that a word game? I don't care anything about John Calvin. I was simply asking for a quote. No word games. I mean both statement very literally. you made a statment about Calvin that was not in the original quote. I asked for a quote. But as I've statement many times, Calvin is not a real concern of mine. I have 0 of his books. Never read him other than a quote.

Even if it were true, you shouldn't be insulting. Stop making excuses for the childish behavior. And no, I don't insult people's intelligence. Another insult form you. 0 quotes of an actual word game.

again no. Never play word games. Looks like just a smoke screen by you.(not to mention a lie.)

Very well and good. But if you truly loved your brothers in Christ you would, yes, not let people continue in error but would not insult.

...excuses, excuses, excuses. again, no word games. It's called you were interpreting something Calvin said as "caused" which wasn't valid. God determining something will happen doesn't mean he causes something to happen. God can determine something will happen by allowing it to happen. He doesn't have to necessarily cause it to happen for it to happen. Again, no word games. Just a simple difference in interpretation. Calvin's original quote never said anything about God causing sin.

I don't believe God is the author of sin and neither does any Calvinist that I know of here. There may be an exception or two, but I know at least for me God is not the author of sin. God uses sin for his purposes(death of Christ, selling of Joseph in slavery) but that doesn't mean God is the author of sin.
I don't believe God directly causes all things. I believe God has determined all things, but that doesn't equal God causing.
I don't believe any contradiction as I don't believe God causes people to sin nor does God temp people to sin.

Of course not...
No...you believe the scripture is why. They just seek to get under your skin, because you see how they do not understand the verses.
:laugh::laugh:
 

Winman

Active Member
So you understand command equals cause? Is that correct?

No, that is how Augustine and Calvin understood it. You have seen the quotes, read them carefully. Augustine and Calvin believed that anything God commands MUST happen. His command is the cause.

I do not believe that, God commands many things that we do not obey.

Calvin said incredibly contradictory statements such as when a man disobeys God, he is actually obeying God's will. He believed God's secret will was that the man disobey his commandment. This is pure lunacy. You have God's revealed will and his secret will in opposition to themselves, God is divided against himself!

But that is exactly what Calvin taught.
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, that is how Augustine and Calvin understood it. You have seen the quotes, read them carefully. Augustine and Calvin believed that anything God commands MUST happen. His command is the cause.

I do not believe that, God commands many things that we do not obey.

Calvin said incredibly contradictory statements such as when a man disobeys God, he is actually obeying God's will. He believed God's secret will was that the man disobey his commandment. This is pure lunacy. You have God revealed will and his secret will in opposition to themselves, God is divided against himself!

But that is exactly what Calvin taught.

Winman,
Others have tried to tell you many times....you are not understanding what you read...
We are not sure if it is deliberate, or you are sincere and misunderstanding.
That is why it seems like contradictions to you.

Let me illustrate from this post-
yousay;
Calvin said incredibly contradictory statements such as when a man disobeys God, he is actually obeying God's will.[/QUOTE]

Nothing takes place apart from God's will. Start with that.
why is that so? because God is God...nothing can take place outside of his control, or he would not be God.

So...lets take a simple example.
Josephs brothers seek to do him harm.
They behave in all manner of sinful ways towards Joseph.
God did not make them sin...yet they sin.
it winds up that their sin was used by God to accomplish His will .
God did NOT make them sin.....and yet their sin was used by God in His providence to ;
20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

God in the same way, used the wicked acts of fallen sinners to crucify Jesus to save the elect. So your whole point is shot down already.
 

Winman

Active Member
Winman,
Others have tried to tell you many times....you are not understanding what you read...
We are not sure if it is deliberate, or you are sincere and misunderstanding.
That is why it seems like contradictions to you.

Let me illustrate from this post-
yousay;
Calvin said incredibly contradictory statements such as when a man disobeys God, he is actually obeying God's will.[/QUOTE]

Nothing takes place apart from God's will. Start with that.
why is that so? because God is God...nothing can take place outside of his control, or he would not be God.

So...lets take a simple example.
Josephs brothers seek to do him harm.
They behave in all manner of sinful ways towards Joseph.
God did not make them sin...yet they sin.
it winds up that their sin was used by God to accomplish His will .
God did NOT make them sin.....and yet their sin was used by God in His providence to ;
20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

God in the same way, used the wicked acts of fallen sinners to crucify Jesus to save the elect. So your whole point is shot down already.

I agree completely that God ALLOWS men to sin, that is obvious. I agree that God did not cause Joseph's brothers to hate him and sell him into slavery, but that God allowed it to bring about his purpose that Joseph would go down into Egypt and save his family years later.

This is not what Calvin taught. Calvin taught unless God commanded it, that Joseph's brothers could not conceive the thought of selling him into slavery. Joseph's brothers could not have hated him unless God commanded it. This makes God the author and cause of sin.

You don't get it, according to Calvin, the devil could not have rebelled against God unless God himself commanded it, the very idea of rebelling could not have entered the devil's mind.
 
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Winman

Active Member
Winman,
Others have tried to tell you many times....you are not understanding what you read...
We are not sure if it is deliberate, or you are sincere and misunderstanding.
That is why it seems like contradictions to you.

Let me illustrate from this post-
yousay;
Calvin said incredibly contradictory statements such as when a man disobeys God, he is actually obeying God's will.[/QUOTE]

Nothing takes place apart from God's will. Start with that.
why is that so? because God is God...nothing can take place outside of his control, or he would not be God.

So...lets take a simple example.
Josephs brothers seek to do him harm.
They behave in all manner of sinful ways towards Joseph.
God did not make them sin...yet they sin.
it winds up that their sin was used by God to accomplish His will .
God did NOT make them sin.....and yet their sin was used by God in His providence to ;
20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

God in the same way, used the wicked acts of fallen sinners to crucify Jesus to save the elect. So your whole point is shot down already.

I agree completely that God ALLOWS men to sin, that is obvious. I agree that God did not cause Joseph's brothers to hate him and sell him into slavery, but that God allowed it to bring about his purpose that Joseph would go down into Egypt and save his family years later.

This is not what Calvin taught. Calvin taught unless God commanded it, that Joseph's brother could not conceive the thought of selling him into slavery. Joseph's brother could not have hated him unless God commanded it. This makes God the author and cause of sin.

You don't get it, according to Calvin, the devil could not have rebelled against God unless God himself commanded it, the very idea of rebelling could not have entered the devil's mind.
 

Winman

Active Member
Calvin also did not believe that when Adam sinned that death and the sin nature naturally passed on all his descendants as some have argued here;

But whether they will allow it or not, predestination is manifest in Adam’s posterity. It was not owing to nature that they all lost salvation by the fault of one parent. Why should they refuse to admit with regard to one man that which against their will they admit with regard to the whole human race? Why should they in caviling lose their labour? Scripture proclaims that all were, in the person of one, made liable to eternal death. As this cannot be ascribed to nature, it is plain that it is owing to the wonderful counsel of God. It is very absurd in these worthy defenders of the justice of God to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknow what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree.

Do you see what Calvin writes here? The sin nature and death did not pass upon all men naturally because of Adam's sin as many argue here, Calvin said this was God's decree. If you were born a sinner, God decreed it, it did not happen as a consequence of Adam's sin.
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Calvin also did not believe that when Adam sinned that death and the sin nature naturally passed on all his descendants as some have argued here;



Do you see what Calvin writes here? The sin nature and death did not pass upon all men naturally because of Adam's sin as many argue here, Calvin said this was God's decree. If you were born a sinner, God decreed it, it did not happen as a consequence of Adam's sin.

I do not want to say anything unkind to you here. I
think you are not getting it,as the conclusions you come up with do not follow the point of discussion. I cannot re-read everything with you as this is speculating about what a man taught, and what he meant by what he said.
calvin was not an apostle....we should only spend extra time looking at scripture.

For what it is worth...here is calvin on romans 5:12
Sin entered into the world, etc. Observe the order which he keeps here; for
he says, that sin preceded, and that from sin death followed. There are
indeed some who contend, that we are so lost through Adam’s sin, as
though we perished through no fault of our own, but only, because he had
sinned for us. But Paul distinctly affirms, that sin extends to all who suffer
its punishment: and this he afterwards more fully declares, when
subsequently he assigns a reason why all the posterity of Adam are
156
subject to the dominion of death; and it is even this — because we have all,
he says, sinned. But to sin in this case, is to become corrupt and vicious;
for the natural depravity which we bring, from our mother’s womb, though
it brings not forth immediately its own fruits, is yet sin before God, and
deserves his vengeance: and this is that sin which they call original
. For as
Adam at his creation had received for us as well as for himself the gifts of
God’s favor, so by falling away from the Lord, he in himself corrupted,
vitiated, depraved, and ruined our nature; for having been divested of
God’s likeness, he could not have generated seed but what was like
himself. Hence we have all sinned; for we are all imbued with natural
corruption, and so are become sinful and wicked. Frivolous
then was the
gloss, by which formerly the Pelagians endeavored to elude the words of
Paul, and held, that sin descended by imitation from Adam to the whole
human race; for Christ would in this case become only the exemplar and
not the cause of righteousness. Besides, we may easily conclude, that he
speaks not here of actual sin; for if everyone for himself contracted guilt,
why did Paul form a comparison between Adam and Christ? It then
follows that our innate and hereditary depravity is what is here referred to.
 
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Not COMMANDED, but DECREED. I don't think the two terms mean the same thing. God's decree was that Man would fall and face God's justice; that God the Son would bear that justice on behalf of those who believed on Him, and that from the fallen race of Adam He would redeem some to eternal life.

These things were decreed "before the foundation of the world," but they weren't "commanded" as though the command could be disobeyed by a defiant creation that had it's own plans to carry out.

One of the reasons I believe in sovereign grace is that it exalts God to absolute Master of all His creation - every act of every creature - rather than turning God's will into "God's hope" and leaving it in the hands of corrupt sinners to carry out.

The Arminian picture of Almighty God as a frustrated deity who must pace heaven's floors wringing his hands and hoping someone on Earth will "let him have his way" is just too offensive for me to take it seriously.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not COMMANDED, but DECREED. I don't think the two terms mean the same thing. God's decree was that Man would fall and face God's justice; that God the Son would bear that justice on behalf of those who believed on Him, and that from the fallen race of Adam He would redeem some to eternal life.

These things were decreed "before the foundation of the world," but they weren't "commanded" as though the command could be disobeyed by a defiant creation that had it's own plans to carry out.

One of the reasons I believe in sovereign grace is that it exalts God to absolute Master of all His creation - every act of every creature - rather than turning God's will into "God's hope" and leaving it in the hands of corrupt sinners to carry out.

The Arminian picture of Almighty God as a frustrated deity who must pace heaven's floors wringing his hands and hoping someone on Earth will "let him have his way" is just too offensive for me to take it seriously.

Exactly the way I see it as well! Thanks for sharing.
 
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