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Whom I am chief.

EdSutton

New Member
FTR, I have had a Strong's Concordance since 1969, which is now literally falling apart, and acquired a second one around 2002 or so.

I have also had both Thayer's and Wigram's Lexicons, both Machen's and Dana and Mantey's Greek Grammars, and the UBS Greek New Testament, 2nd Edition since 1969, as well.

And now I have had the Greek New Testament According to the Majority Text, for some 20 years, in addition.

And these that I have, are all in "hard copy".

That said, I have virtually no doubt that there are hundreds of Baptist Board members who could "chew me up, and spit me out" without even beginning to satisfy any hunger, over my limited knowledge of the Greek language (and frankly, IMO, "pick their teeth" with the apparent knowledge of the Greek language displayed by some others, perhaps even on this thread), for I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, a Greek scholar, in any way.

(Anyone who recognizes any more Hebrew on sight, than the letter "Aleph", would surpass me in Hebrew knowledge.)

However, the late James Strong, D.D. does not happen to be one of these 'Greek surpassers" on the BB, especially since he long since departed this earthly life on Aug. 7, 1894, over 113 years ago.

Nor did James Strong do any translation of a Bible version, to my knowledge, unlike his almost life-long contemporary, the late Robert Young, both of whom were born in 1822 about a month apart. (Robert Young died at the age of 66 in 1888, six years before did Strong, with Young's demise, no doubt somewhat hastened by his residence in the cold Scottish environment of Edinburgh.) Young's Literal Translation was published in 1862, and remains to this day, an very good translation of the Bible, IMO.

Both of these individuals produced extraordinary efforts in an English concordance, that have, IMO, yet to be surpassed, even after a century.

However, I now have two questions specifically addressed to Brother Bob.

The first question is, "Do you happen to possess a copy of Strong's Concordance, since that seems to be your favorite source for Greek (and Hebrew & Chaldee/Aramaic) information?" I really would like to know the answer to this, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

The second question is, Whether or not you own one in "hard copy", have you ever taken the time to read the PREFACE(s) to the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries, and the PLAN OF THE BOOK to the same dictionaries? Since it appears to me that you have not, or did not catch the gist of the work, I shall here take the liberty of including some quotes, about the volume, from the actual volume itself. One might say that this was "originally 'posted' by James Strong, S.T.D., LL.D., (1890)" :D :laugh:
The vocabulary is complete as to the ground-forms that actually occur in the biblical text (or Kethib), with the pointing that properly belongs to them.
The design of the volume, being purely lexical, does not include grammatical, archaeological, or exegetical details, which would have swelled its size and encumbered its plan. (p.4, PREFACE, 'The Hebrew Dictionary')

This work is entirely similar in origin, method, and design, to the author's HEBREW DICTIONARY, and may be employed separately, for a corresponding purpose, and with a like result, namely, to be serviceable to many who have not the wish or the ability to use a more copious Lexicon of New Testamant Greek. (p.4, PREFACE. 'The Greek Dictionary')

6. Finally (after the pronounciation-mark :-- ) are given all the different renderings of the word in the Authorized English Version, arranged in the alphabetical order of the leading terms, and conveniently condensed according to the explanations given below. [p.5, PLAN OF THE BOOK, (identical in both the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries)]
I will add that the specific uses of the +, x, and * [degree (Hebrew)] signs, and the () (parenthesis), [] (brackets), and italics, all convey specific information that can be found on p.6, in both Dictionaries, as well, under the category of "SIGNS EMPLOYED", as well as the import of ""ABBREVIATIONS EMPLOYED" which is also to be found on p.6, are germane to any legitimate attempt to use Strong's in any correct manner, as opposed to merely "cut and paste" from an on-line source, that may seem to support one's position, out of context. I have given emphasis above to important points, IMO.

This is entirely consistent with what I have said before, as have others, only not in as many words.

Frankly, I see little need to paste, 'er I mean post, something from Strong's concordance three different times, so far; what Spurgeon has said three different times; and what a preacher from PA has said four times in one thread. I understood it all the first time. How correct any and all these (in the same vein as the rest of us), are or are not, is debatable. But there is no need for the redundancy, at least for my benefit.

I shall bow out of this thread, at least for now, for anything more I might add, here would itself be redundant, and I see little need to contribute to that.

Peace,

Ed
 
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EdSutton

New Member
Allan said:
Bob, I love you brother but you need to stop cherry picking here.
To re-quote the Strongs:
1510
eimi
eimi
i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time.

I have looked at 17 different translations and only one says 'was' (that being the NLT). I personally in translating the text would use the word 'am' and not 'was'. Another poster stated the looked at 20 or 21 different translations and they only found one that used the wording 'was' the rest used the word 'am'. And personally I put little stock in the NLT. EVEN the KJV used 'am'.

Your notion that Paul is the greatest sinner who ever has, is, or will live is completely unbiblical. Paul was not in any sense of the phrase saying he is the greastest sinner that has ever, is, and who will ever live but that beclaring the the magnitude of his sin as only knows it. THAT is what the phrase inspired the Holy Spirit means.

Do you really believe Pauls sin, is and will be greater than that of the Anti-Christ. His sin will make Paul's (when he was unsaved) look like one of the redeemed by comparison of the two. There are still many more through out history and the before Pauls time who's sins trump Pauls by miles.

If you believe Paul WAS the greastest sinner to ever be or will ever be created, then what sins made him so, and has anyone else done those same things or even all of those same things. Will someone do more of the sins Paul did and even some Paul never did.

Remember, Paul was one of the greastest pharisees and lived (works wise) above reproach (to the pharisees that is). He did murder, sleep around, commit idolitry, et... outwardly. The murder part of only arguable in light of our born again understanding, but to him and others at that moment, he was doing just what they were supposed to as Jews/ children of God.

Did he rape children, sadistically mutilate the bodies for pleasure of adults and children alike? The list can go on and on as to what we 'presume' as a greater sin or lesser sin. But the FACT is, scirpture states to break the least of law is to be guilty of ALL of the law. Meaning is one part is broken, even the least you are guilty of breaking ALL of the laws. The same spiritual aspect is carried over regarding sin. To break the smallest aspect of what we 'presume' sin is, is to be guilty of SIN. If you lie - SIN, if you murder - SIN. SIN is SIN and there is no distinction in sin only the action commited that involves that sin. But the action does not enlarge the actaul status of the sin, only our perception of the degree we think the sin involves.

Can you name one sin that a Christian can commit without it being one of the greats according to you.

I believe a christian will not continue in sin and know of no one on the BB who believes a christian can maintain a lifestyle of sin as a Christian. That is our contention. Not that we can sin and get away with it but that if we sin we will not stay in it.
FTR, the NLT (©1999, ©2004) at least on Bible Gateway, renders I Tim. 1:15 thusly
15 This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”—and I am the worst of them all.
That was not the version I was referring to as the one that rendered this as 'was'.

Ed
 

Brother Bob

New Member
EdSutton said:
FTR, I have had a Strong's Concordance since 1969, which is now literally falling apart, and acquired a second one around 2002 or so.

I have also had both Thayer's and Wigram's Lexicons, both Machen's and Dana and Mantey's Greek Grammars, and the UBS Greek New Testament, 2nd Edition since 1969, as well.

And now I have had the Greek New Testament According to the Majority Text, for some 20 years, in addition.

And these that I have, are all in "hard copy".

That said, I have virtually no doubt that there are hundreds of Baptist Board members who could "chew me up, and spit me out" without even beginning to satisfy any hunger, over my limited knowledge of the Greek language (and frankly, IMO, "pick their teeth" with the apparent knowledge of the Greek language displayed by some others, perhaps even on this thread), for I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, a Greek scholar, in any way.

(Anyone who recognizes any more Hebrew on sight, than the letter "Aleph", would surpass me in Hebrew knowledge.)

However, the late James Strong, D.D. does not happen to be one of these 'Greek surpassers" on the BB, especially since he long since departed this earthly life on Aug. 7, 1894, over 113 years ago.

Nor did James Strong do any translation of a Bible version, to my knowledge, unlike his almost life-long contemporary, the late Robert Young, both of whom were born in 1822 about a month apart. (Robert Young died at the age of 66 in 1888, six years before did Strong, with Young's demise, no doubt somewhat hastened by his residence in the cold Scottish environment of Edinburgh.) Young's Literal Translation was published in 1862, and remains to this day, an very good translation of the Bible, IMO.

Both of these individuals produced extraordinary efforts in an English concordance, that have, IMO, yet to be surpassed, even after a century.

However, I now have two questions specifically addressed to Brother Bob.

The first question is, "Do you happen to possess a copy of Strong's Concordance, since that seems to be your favorite source for Greek (and Hebrew & Chaldee/Aramaic) information?" I really would like to know the answer to this, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

The second question is, Whether or not you own one in "hard copy", have you ever taken the time to read the PREFACE(s) to the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries, and the PLAN OF THE BOOK to the same dictionaries? Since it appears to me that you have not, or did not catch the gist of the work, I shall here take the liberty of including some quotes, about the volume, from the actual volume itself.I will add that the specific uses of the +, x, and * [degree (Hebrew)] signs, and the () (parenthesis), [] (brackets), and italics, all convey specific information that can be found on p.6, in both Dictionaries, as well, under the category of "SIGNS EMPLOYED", as well as the import of ""ABBREVIATIONS EMPLOYED" which is also to be found on p.6, are germane to any legitimate attempt to use Strong's in any correct manner, as opposed to merely "cut and paste" from an on-line source, that may seem to support one's position, out of context. I have given emphasis above to important points, IMO.

This is entirely consistent with what I have said before, as have others, only not in as many words.

Frankly, I see little need to paste, 'er I mean post, something from Strong's concordance three different times, so far; what Spurgeon has said three different times; and what a preacher from PA has said four times in one thread. I understood it all the first time. How correct any and all these (in the same vein as the rest of us), are or are not, is debatable. But there is no need for the redundancy, at least for my benefit.

I shall bow out of this thread, at least for now, for anything more I might add, here would itself be redundant, and I see little need to contribute to that.

Peace,

Ed

I have one answer for you and that is: Why did you buy 1 strong's and wear it out and then buy another, if you don't like it too much???

Also, the several postings was not for you, but any new veiwers who may happen to come on the thread, thank you.

Also, it all seems mute to me now that I read verse 16, which states what I have said all along that Paul was speaking of when he received his salvation.

1 Tim. 15

I don't know why I didn't read the next verse, for it explains it all.

15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Verse 16 plainly says what I been saying all along, that Paul was speaking of his salvation, that if Jesus saved him, he would save any sinner.

BBob

ps. Ed; maybe you could post some sermons or quotes of the elder theologians who does not believe that Paul was speaking of how he had sinned, and if God forgave him, then surely he can forgive us, I can't find anyone who believes Apostle Paul was speaking of present sins?? I be watching!
 
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Allan

Active Member
Brother Bob said:
I picked the first one I googled;

By Charles Woodruff
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" (I Timothy 1:15).


Paul the apostle, whose conversion was a classic example, a pattern, as he said himself in verse 16; was shaken to the very core of his being, and changed from being Saul, a persecutor of the church, a hater of Christ, to the greatest advocate of the Christian faith. His pattern was remarkable, and is clear in the word of God, repeated several times in the book of Acts for all to see. Yet, I have heard preachers and teachers say "God doesn’t force anyone to be saved. He won’t violate their will". Well, it sure looks like to me that God used a bit of force to save Saul of Tarsus! There was a will involved all right, but primarily it was God’s. Read the account in Acts 9 for yourself, and you’ll see that Saul was "made willing" after being blinded, and knocked down to the earth and hearing a voice saying "Saul, Saul Why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 9:4). He then said "Who art thou Lord?" (Acts 9:5) When he heard "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" (Acts 9:5), Saul said "Lord what wilt thou have me to do?"(Acts 9: 5, 6).


Tim. 1:15

Wesley's Notes

1:15 This is a faithful saying - A most solemn preface. And worthy of all acceptation - Well deserving to be accepted, received, embraced, with all the faculties of our whole soul. That Christ - Promised. Jesus - Exhibited. Came into the world to save sinners - All sinners, without exception.


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

1:12-17 The apostle knew that he would justly have perished, if the Lord had been extreme to mark what was amiss; and also if his grace and mercy had not been abundant to him when dead in sin, working faith and love to Christ in his heart. This is a faithful saying; these are true and faithful words, which may be depended on, That the Son of God came into the world, willingly and purposely to save sinners. No man, with Paul's example before him, can question the love and power of Christ to save him, if he really desires to trust in him as the Son of God, who once died on the cross, and now reigns upon the throne of glory, to save all that come to God through him. Let us then admire and praise the grace of God our Saviour; and ascribe to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three Persons in the unity of the Godhead, the glory of all done in, by, and for us.

I can not find anyone who agrees with you.

Paul was saying if he saved me, then he will save you.
Bob, NONE of these contradict what I said. I agree this is about salvaiton. NO QUESTION. The issue revolves around your incerting 'was' instead of reading the text as is - 'am'.
 

Allan

Active Member
EdSutton said:
FTR, the NLT (©1999, ©2004) at least on Bible Gateway, renders I Tim. 1:15 thuslyThat was not the version I was referring to as the one that rendered this as 'was'.

Ed
This is a true saying, and everyone should believe it: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-and I was the worst of them all.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

Glad to see their Greek Translators corrected it.
 

Steven2006

New Member
I still have to agree with Brother Bob here.


1Ti 1:13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

In context of what Paul was saying, it seems clear he was referring to what he had done, when referring to himself as chief sinner. I don't see the conflict. This is how he felt about himself, still at that moment, so of course he said, I am. He was far to humble to say I was. But it still doesn't discount what he was referring to.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Allan said:
Bob, NONE of these contradict what I said. I agree this is about salvaiton. NO QUESTION. The issue revolves around your incerting 'was' instead of reading the text as is - 'am'.

Well Bro Allan; I told you I was lacking...........:laugh:

I just wasn't understanding you.

BBob,
 
Versions I have that use the word 'am':

American Standard Version; 1901
Bible in Basic English; 1949/1964
The Bishops Bible; 1595
Holman Christian Standard Bible; 1999
The English Darby Bible; 1884
Douay-Rheims; 1899
English Revised Version; 1885
English Standard Version; 2001
Geneva Bible; 1599
God's Word to the Nations; 1995
King James Version; 1611
King James Version; 1769
King James 2000; 2001
New American Bible; 1970
New American Standard Bible; 1977/1995
The Net Bible; 2004
The New International Version; 1973
The New Jerusalem Bible; 1985
New King James Version; 1982
New Living Translation; 2004
New Revised Standard Version; 1989
Revised Standard Version; 1952
English Revised 1833 Webster Update Version; 1988
The Tyndale New Testament; 1534
The English Noah Webster Bible; 1988
The English Young's Literal Translation; 1862
The World English Bible; 2003
The Wycliffe Bible; 1388

Versions that say 'I'm':
Complete Jewish Bible; 1998


Versions that use the word 'was':
Pershitta-James Murdock Translation; 1852

Of all the translators of these versions, only one translated the verse to read past tense. 29 used present tense.
 
Steven2006 said:
I still have to agree with Brother Bob here.


1Ti 1:13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

In context of what Paul was saying, it seems clear he was referring to what he had done, when referring to himself as chief sinner. I don't see the conflict. This is how he felt about himself, still at that moment, so of course he said, I am. He was far to humble to say I was. But it still doesn't discount what he was referring to.

Had Paul meant was in verse 15, he would have inserted it there. Was was used in verses eleven and thirteen by Paul, did he have a sudden lapse of memory in verse 15? I think not. Paul used am because he believed because of his constant struggle with the flesh as evidenced by Romans 7 caused him to sin constantly... after salvation.

Am... present tense is the correct reading
 

Steven2006

New Member
standingfirminChrist said:
Had Paul meant was in verse 15, he would have inserted it there. Was was used in verses eleven and thirteen by Paul, did he have a sudden lapse of memory in verse 15? I think not. Paul used am because he believed because of his constant struggle with the flesh as evidenced by Romans 7 caused him to sin constantly... after salvation.

Am... present tense is the correct reading

Reread my post, I agree Paul did intend to use, I am. I believe that is how he felt about himself at that moment, but I also believe if you take it in context of what he had just mentioned he was referring to what he had done, when calling himself chief sinner. Don't forget there were no verse separations when he wrote this, keep it in context.
If someone is a murderer, and then they get saved, I doubt they stop thinking that they are a murderer. Thankful for God's forgiveness, absolutely, but forget no. They would still say, I am a murderer, always will be.

Although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
 
Paul wrote in other passages that the old man was dead. He was no longer a murderer as he once saw himself. The old had passed away.

Paul was not referring to his past sins in verse 15, as that was all gone. Paul knew that God remembered those sins against him no more.
 

Steven2006

New Member
So am I to understand that you believe that Paul felt that the way he had lived his life after being saved, was so sinful that he currently at that writing was a greater sinner than all?
 

Brother Bob

New Member
standingfirminChrist said:
Paul wrote in other passages that the old man was dead. He was no longer a murderer as he once saw himself. The old had passed away.

Paul was not referring to his past sins in verse 15, as that was all gone. Paul knew that God remembered those sins against him no more.
Also, if you will read carefully, you will see in verse 16.

1 Tim. 15

I don't know why I didn't read the next verse, for it explains it all.

15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Verse 16 plainly says what I been saying all along, that Paul was speaking of his salvation, that if Jesus saved him, he would save any sinner.

Also, ever elder theologian I can find believed that Paul was speaking of his salvation and what God had forgave him of.

BBob
 
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Steven2006 said:
So am I to understand that you believe that Paul felt that the way he had lived his life after being saved, was so sinful that he currently at that writing was a greater sinner than all?
Paul used the term I am. He clearly stated in other epistles that he struggled with sin. In fact, he often gave in to it.

The evil that I would not, that I do.

Yes, I believe verse 15 was referring to his life after Salvation. He found himself falling so much that he felt he was at the present time the chief of sinners.
 
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Brother Bob said:
Also, if you will read carefully, you will see in verse 16.

1 Tim. 15

I don't know why I didn't read the next verse, for it explains it all.

15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Verse 16 plainly says what I been saying all along, that Paul was speaking of his salvation, that if Jesus saved him, he would save any sinner.

Also, ever elder theologian I can find believed that Paul was speaking of his salvation and what God had forgave him of.

BBob

If this is true, Paul would have used the word 'was' in verse 15. He did not. He used the word 'am'.

Again, why the lapse of memory if your theory is correct?
 

Brother Bob

New Member
standingfirminChrist said:
If this is true, Paul would have used the word 'was' in verse 15. He did not. He used the word 'am'.

Again, why the lapse of memory if your theory is correct?

No, according to translators he used am, which is questionable. But the scripture before and after tell the context of what Paul meant plainly, for anyone to see, who really wants to.

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

obtained mercy plainly shows what Paul meant, that he was forgiven because he did it ignorantly in unbelief. Paul was saying, if he was saved, as bad as he is, then God will save the worst of sinners. Its all about salvation!

BBob,
 
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Steven2006

New Member
standingfirminChrist said:
Paul used the term I am. He clearly stated in other epistles that he struggled with sin. In fact, he often gave in to it.

The evil that I would nbot, that I do.

Yes, I believe verse 15 was referring to his life after Salvation. He found himself falling so much that he felt he was at the present time the chief of sinners.


If Paul was the greatest practicing sinner of that time, how in the world did he have the moral authority to chastise those as he did in 1 Cor 5? How come he would instruct them to deliver such a person to Satan, but he being a greater sinner than that, not deliver himself? How come he tells them in verse 5:13 to "put away from yourselves the evil person", but yet he being a worse sinner, that they shouldn't put him away? It just doesn't make sense at all, that Paul was practicing sin greater than anyone else.
 

Steven2006

New Member
standingfirminChrist said:
If this is true, Paul would have used the word 'was' in verse 15. He did not. He used the word 'am'.

Again, why the lapse of memory if your theory is correct?

You keep saying that, but I gave you an explanation before why he would have. Is wasn't a lapse. He felt that way about himself for what he had done. Just because we know God doesn't remember our sin, doesn't mean we don't. Like I posted earlier, if someone is a murderer, and then is saved, the person is still going to know that he is a murderer. Thankful he is forgiven yes, but still a murderer.
 
No, when God forgave Paul of his past sins, they no longer existed. Paul was not still a murderer or persecurter. His epistles clearly teach us that he did not see himself as the same person. He was not a murderer after coming to Christ.
 
Steven2006 said:
If Paul was the greatest practicing sinner of that time, how in the world did he have the moral authority to chastise those as he did in 1 Cor 5? How come he would instruct them to deliver such a person to Satan, but he being a greater sinner than that, not deliver himself? How come he tells them in verse 5:13 to "put away from yourselves the evil person", but yet he being a worse sinner, that they shouldn't put him away? It just doesn't make sense at all, that Paul was practicing sin greater than anyone else.

Paul did not make a habit of sin as the man in 1 Corinthians 5. The man in the Church in Corinth was in an incestuous relationship with his step-mother.
 
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