Felipe Rios
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Why Do Men Hate God's Sovereignty in Election
- Thread starter thatbrian
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You do realize that majority of humans who have lived and died have not even heard the gospel, don't own a Bible, and are nowhere near a church, right?
"Free will" advocates imagine the entire world lives in 2017 Nashville. . .
Felipe Rios
Member
You are assuming that they will never hear the Gospel. But lets assume they never hear the Gospel or of Jesus. That's where God's middle knowledge comes in (Molinism). God knows ALL things, He knows what could happen, what would happen and what will happen. So we can assume that these people would have rejected Jesus anyways even if they had heard the gospel.
Not only that, who said God can only draw people with the Gospel? The Spirit can draw a person who would never hear the Gospel. If that person has a true desire to find the true God, they will eventually find God.
If God calls people to repent, and if God calls "whosoever" to come to Jesus, this implies that all humans CAN come to Jesus. That's why I believe God ENABLES everyone to believe OR not believe. God gives the dead man the ABILITY to receive Him or reject Him at the point of conviction.
And...strawman.
Whew, it's been almost 12 hours, thought you weren't going to make your quota.
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Men do have choice, but their choice is subordinate to God's sovereignty.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Felipe Rios
Member
I agree with you!
No. I know it to be true. Romans 10:14
He did. The gospel is the means He chose, unless you reject that in favor of multiple ways to God.
The Holy Spirit does not act outside of the Word.
Who seeks after God? No one, according to scripture. That's why Christ seeks after His sheep. He came seek and save the lost, not to provide the possibility for salvation.
Again, the Bible would disagree with that position, specifically John 6:44. No one CAN come to me, says Jesus. That means no one has the ability.
And, how may I ask does He do this?
God states different measure of responsibility.
Luke 12
47“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
We see other parables like the talents:
Matthew 25
29“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
You might have the full abundance 5 talents, your other Non-Calvinist christians might have 4, maybe give us Catholics 3 that Muslim might have 2 and that Atheist might have 1.
What counts is what you do with what you have.
We teach the Good Samaritan is Good rather then a damned Samaritan for not being christian.
Omnipotent means Omnipotent.
God is a big enough wildcard to preach the gospel to anyone regardless of how time appears an obstruction with you, With God nothing is impossible.
God can have you preach the gospel to some guy 3000 years ago, if he wants.
Often I've prayed that God could convey my gratitude to Jesus when he is at the cross. Obviously if he wants to do that or not is on him.
I find one of the biggest sins I can make is to presume God would not be willing to do a kindness he easily can.
Best answer so far!
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
We were discussing ways the Holy Spirit "draws" men. I already mentioned "primarily the Gospel": did you not read that? The second answer was "how Christians behave and love others" . But you seem to know little about that, God is love, sir, have you not been filled with His Spirit of love?
Yes, I know. The Holy Spirit draws people unto Christ via the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.
thatbrian asked you:
To which you replied:
I then asked for you to explain how watching how Christians behave and love others tells of the substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
To which you replied
Yes, you did. But you added something in which I cannot discern the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. So I asked for you to expound on how you see living the Christian life explicitly tells of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
To which you responded;
Yes, I did. Had I not read it I could not have replied to it.
Yes, I know.
Allow me to caution you against insulting me or other forum members in these threads. It is not only a violation of forum rules, but it is also un-Christlike.
Yes, I know. 1 John 4:16.
Again, allow me to caution you against insulting me or other forum members in these threads. It is not only a violation of forum rules, but it is also un-Christlike.
So, I am still awaiting your answer to my question of how our life style communicates the substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to the lost.
Here, let me help you by explaining how I see the two as possibly being linked.
The Gospel is that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again according to the Scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
Love your neighbor, and having love for one another is not the Gospel. Loving your neighbor and loving others is the second part of the Great Commandment (Matthew 22:39) as expounded by Christ (John 13:39).
What keeping the Great Commandment does is show the unbeliever the effect the Gospel has had on us, but it is not the Gospel itself.
Yes, I know. The Holy Spirit draws people unto Christ via the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.
thatbrian asked you:To which you replied:
I then asked for you to explain how watching how Christians behave and love others tells of the substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
To which you replied
Yes, you did. But you added something in which I cannot discern the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. So I asked for you to expound on how you see living the Christian life explicitly tells of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
To which you responded;
Yes, I did. Had I not read it I could not have replied to it.
Yes, I know.
Allow me to caution you against insulting me or other forum members in these threads. It is not only a violation of forum rules, but it is also un-Christlike.
Yes, I know. 1 John 4:16.
Again, allow me to caution you against insulting me or other forum members in these threads. It is not only a violation of forum rules, but it is also un-Christlike.
So, I am still awaiting your answer to my question of how our life style communicates the substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to the lost.
Here, let me help you by explaining how I see the two as possibly being linked.
The Gospel is that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again according to the Scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
Love your neighbor, and having love for one another is not the Gospel. Loving your neighbor and loving others is the second part of the Great Commandment (Matthew 22:39) as expounded by Christ (John 13:39).
What keeping the Great Commandment does is show the unbeliever the effect the Gospel has had on us, but it is not the Gospel itself.
"Love your neighbor, and having love for one another is not the Gospel. "
Love your neighbor is the Gospel which Jesus taught and lived and whom is our example to follow.
This statement: "The Gospel is that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again according to the Scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)."
And Love God and Neighbor are synonymous. Without love of neighbor there is no "Christ died for our sins"
Here is a verse I don't think can be clearer:
John 15
12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
Did Jesus lay down his life for us?
Jesus Christ did nothing beyond follow the commandments.
The commandment of God is the #1 priority any attempt to undermine and obscure this is a sin.
Like a child who is told he may play for one hour in a fenced-in backyard. The child is free to play whichever games he may dream up, but the fence and clock limit restrain him.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
I never said that it did. I said that loving others and living right is one way the Holy Ghost draws sinners.
So, this is not an "insult"?
"If I am lifted up I will draw all men to Myself." It is the Gospel that draws men to Christ. The most that being loving can do is draw people to us.
No, that is a fact. I have more respect for Revmitchell's position than for yours. At least he supports his with scripture.
This answer scares me more than most of the stuff that goes on here on BB, for it shows not only a misunderstanding of the gospel but confuses the law with the gospel, and the law can only condemn, not save.
The term Gospel means good news. It's news. It's a proclamation of the victor of Christ the King's victory over sin and death. Faith, based in Christ and His gospel not only saves a man, it is also how he grows in the faith. This is Christianity 101.
Jesus summed the entire law of God this way: And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?" Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.There is no other commandment greater than these."
The law is not the gospel. The law has no power to save. In fact, just the opposite. "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it." James 2:10
Finally, Jesus did not come to be a moral example. He came to live perfect life and die a sinner's death, and to do those on behalf of His sheep.
"Jesus did not come to be a moral example."
John 13
15“For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.
1 corinthians 11
1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
1 Peter 2
21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
Galatians 5
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
Romans 13
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
This is clearly separated from the works of the Mosaic laws its in the same chapter:
Galatians 5
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Read Galatians 5 in its entirety, We would have to think Paul is crazy if he is talking about the same law, There is Jewish precepts and then there is Christ's command to love neighbor.
The life of Jesus is the Gospel.
The entirety of the Gospel can be found in the four Gospels, that's why they are named gospels
Jesus always preached the Gospel. The entirety of the Gospel can be found in the Lord's perfect prayer:
Matthew 6
9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11‘Give us this day our daily bread.
12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Why did Jesus say He came?
Luke 12
49“I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50“But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
Ever heard of that one? I don't remember it lol.
There is plenty of angles not sure which one in particular you want:
He came for the lost sheep is Israel.
He came to take sins of the world.
He came not to condemn the world but to save world through him.
He came to bring a sword.
He came not to call the righteous but sinners.
He came to lay down his life to take it again.
He came not to be served but to serve.
He came to give his life a ransom for many.
He came to do the will of the Father.
He came so the Father would be known.
He came to bring us spiritual life.
There are tons of purposes you can find in scripture which still remains our exemplar to follow.
When we look at the ultimate motive the driving principle it is LOVE. God so LOVED the world. LOVE others the way I have LOVED you.
If there is no LOVE there is no "why".
29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Now I got my own question, You answer it.
John 15
12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
Did Jesus lay down his life for us? Is that CLEAR COMMANDMENT not the Gospel?
For you to be able to wiggle out of this one requires to depreciate the "AS I HAVE LOVED YOU".
This is not the same LAW of Jews who believed that by being circumcised thus chosen people have a superiority on gentiles. They had like 613 LAWS/COMMANDMENTS that set them apart as Jewish.
Loving God and Loving neighbor did not make you Jewish, even the Good Samaritan did that.
I really love these tennis matches...but we are all sinners and we live in a sinful word... therefore we all sin. So are we to counter this by becoming Puritans? They are the most hypocritical creatures walking the face of the earth or are we to be the Catholic who admits to sin but has a way out, confess your sins but redo them then confess again 
Both positions are totally absurd. So why even bother. Yes strive to be good and humble and responsible but temper that with the knowledge that sin is the one constant in the world.
Both positions are totally absurd. So why even bother. Yes strive to be good and humble and responsible but temper that with the knowledge that sin is the one constant in the world.
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