Why man hates the Gospel Truth of Election !

[Baptist4life]

Christmas is just past. I would guess that most of you received a Christmas present. Someone bought it, brought it to you, and you simply reached out and took it...................now...........after Christmas did you go around telling everyone " look what I bought for myself?" No, it was a gift.....but it wasn't yours until you accepted it. You could have refused it, told the person you didn't want it. Doesn't mean they didn't get it for you, or that they didn't want you to have it.
However, if you did take it, you did nothing but accept the free gift. Such is salvation...............Christ offers it freely to ALL.........it is your GIFT............but, it's not actually yours until you receive it. You can refuse His gift. Doesn't mean He didn't offer it. You just didn't want it. If you accept it, there's no bragging, because it's nothing you've done. Christ bought it (on the cross), offers it to you, and you take it. So, someone saying "I believed" isn't bragging or claiming you saved yourself, no more than saying "I got this present for Christmas" is bragging or saying you bought it yourself.

 

[Reformed]

To extend your metaphor of the brush, if I may, let me explain my objection to the thesis of the OP. As we mature in the Christian faith many of us define and refine our understanding what the Bible says. Points of doctrine are accepted and rejected through Bible study, the influence of others and -prayerfully- the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The broad brush, as it were, becomes refined to the point where it becomes a pin striping brush. These fine brushes make a clear line as thin as a thread as need be, never once deviating from the intended course.

The OP gave us two choices. Actually it gave us one: believe in the "Gospel Truth of Election" or you are a boastful, arrogant and possibly unsaved lout. What if the OP had started with, "I am a Knight Sword No. 2 Pin Striping Brush. How dare the rest of you call yourselves brushes at all? If you are not as I am you are no more than the horse's tail from whence you came." Wouldn't you conclude that you were hearing from a proud, boastful, arrogant little pin striping brush? Enough about brushes.

Unfortunately, the merit of Election can never be discussed when the thesis is flawed. This is the passage that first came to mind:

Luke 18:11-12 NAS77

11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer.
12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'​

SBM, I am not calling you a Pharisee. I am highlighting the attitude of this man who boasted of how humble he was. Later you said, "People always say that they are not boasting when they say that their freewill accepting is what makes the difference between saved and lost, but it is boasting by default, whether they confess it or not ! The denial of it is false humility !"

Nobody has said here that their free will saved anything. Did you read my testimony (post # 11 I believe)? Did you read the quote I posted from the prince of Arminians John Wesley? It is obvious that you don't understand what Free Will means only that someone told you it was bad and therefore you must rail against it.

I understand and appreciate your irenic reply. I have to tune SBM out because his ramblings make no sense.

My early years as a Christian were spent being mentored by a godly Arminian pastor. While he believed in Synergism he did not hold the attitude that he had anything to boast about before God. He and I are now on opposite sides of the debate but I love and respect him dearly. I hope that I can one day emulate his compassion and love.

 

[savedbymercy]

Christmas is just past. I would guess that most of you received a Christmas present. Someone bought it, brought it to you, and you simply reached out and took it...................now...........after Christmas did you go around telling everyone " look what I bought for myself?" No, it was a gift.....but it wasn't yours until you accepted it. You could have refused it, told the person you didn't want it. Doesn't mean they didn't get it for you, or that they didn't want you to have it.
However, if you did take it, you did nothing but accept the free gift. Such is salvation...............Christ offers it freely to ALL.........it is your GIFT............but, it's not actually yours until you receive it. You can refuse His gift. Doesn't mean He didn't offer it. You just didn't want it. If you accept it, there's no bragging, because it's nothing you've done. Christ bought it (on the cross), offers it to you, and you take it. So, someone saying "I believed" isn't bragging or claiming you saved yourself, no more than saying "I got this present for Christmas" is bragging or saying you bought it yourself.

This is salvation by works, by what a person does. If I reach out to accept something that is my effort, that is reason to boast !

 

[padredurand]

That's my point, no one says it, but it's true none the same, it is True by default !

Argumentum ad nauseam! You keep saying this but the shear repetition does not make it true. There is only one default to the human condition namely:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:23 NAS77

You compound the problem by boasting about how you are not boasting like all of us uninformed miscreants.

I understand and appreciate your irenic reply. I have to tune SBM out because his ramblings make no sense.

My early years as a Christian were spent being mentored by a godly Arminian pastor. While he believed in Synergism he did not hold the attitude that he had anything to boast about before God. He and I are now on opposite sides of the debate but I love and respect him dearly. I hope that I can one day emulate his compassion and love.

Irenic? You get the $7.00 word-of-the-day award! :thumbs:and I appreciate the sentiment. I, too, had a pastor during my impressionable years that I respect greatly. He is a brilliant man and can easily articulate every doctrinal position he holds to the smallest detail, chapter and verse. That is not what I remember him for. He was blessed with half a dozen teen-aged boys.... well let me just say the half-dozen or so of us young fellers tried the patience of a many good saints over the years. I was a rude young man and always addressed him as Preacher. The long and short of it is that Preacher loved us like his Savior instructed him to do. 40 years later, I still call him Preacher, but there is a lot much more respect attached these days. When I was struggling with the call to preach I sought his advice and counsel. One of the best pieces of advice I got from him was when he said it was important to have good doctrine but more important to have great love.

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NAS77

 

[savedbymercy]

Argumentum ad nauseam! You keep saying this but the shear repetition does not make it true. There is only one default to the human condition namely:



You compound the problem by boasting about how you are not boasting like all of us uninformed miscreants.




Irenic? You get the $7.00 word-of-the-day award! :thumbs:and I appreciate the sentiment. I, too, had a pastor during my impressionable years that I respect greatly. He is a brilliant man and can easily articulate every doctrinal position he holds to the smallest detail, chapter and verse. That is not what I remember him for. He was blessed with half a dozen teen-aged boys.... well let me just say the half-dozen or so of us young fellers tried the patience of a many good saints over the years. I was a rude young man and always addressed him as Preacher. The long and short of it is that Preacher loved us like his Savior instructed him to do. 40 years later, I still call him Preacher, but there is a lot much more respect attached these days. When I was struggling with the call to preach I sought his advice and counsel. One of the best pieces of advice I got from him was when he said it was important to have good doctrine but more important to have great love.

Sorry it is boasting by default !

 

[steaver]

Steaver...Calvinist have God hating a great portion of His Creation before He ever created it,

God considered mankind as fallen, yet in mercy saves a multitude in His Son.

So your saying God based His hatred for the non-elect on knowing beforehand that mankind would fall

 

[convicted1]

Christmas is just past. I would guess that most of you received a Christmas present. Someone bought it, brought it to you, and you simply reached out and took it...................now...........after Christmas did you go around telling everyone " look what I bought for myself?" No, it was a gift.....but it wasn't yours until you accepted it. You could have refused it, told the person you didn't want it. Doesn't mean they didn't get it for you, or that they didn't want you to have it.
However, if you did take it, you did nothing but accept the free gift. Such is salvation...............Christ offers it freely to ALL.........it is your GIFT............but, it's not actually yours until you receive it. You can refuse His gift. Doesn't mean He didn't offer it. You just didn't want it. If you accept it, there's no bragging, because it's nothing you've done. Christ bought it (on the cross), offers it to you, and you take it. So, someone saying "I believed" isn't bragging or claiming you saved yourself, no more than saying "I got this present for Christmas" is bragging or saying you bought it yourself.

The gifts and callings of God are w/o repentance...(Rom. 11:29)

 

[padredurand]

Sorry it is boasting by default !

You have said repeatedly that if a person does not hold your position concerning Election they are not truly saved. By your logic, holding that doctrinal position is an act of human will. If any active participation by an individual is a demonstration of free will then you, too, are boasting by default.

To carry your logic further consider Paul's active participation in Romans 10. Following on the heels of your beloved Chapter 9 that outlines what you believe to be the true Gospel Paul says,

Romans 10:8-13 NAS77
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;
10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

I have bolded and underlined these very words of Scripture in which Paul directs active participation in those things which lead to salvation: confessing with your mouth, believing in your heart, with the heart believing, with the mouth confessing, believing in Him, calling upon the name of the Lord.

If Paul is mistaken in Chapter 10 then there is nothing to support him being correct in Chapter 9. Paul does not call confessing with the mouth as a means to boast. He calls it the way to being saved. Paul does not call believing with the heart a means to boast. He calls it the way to being saved. Paul does not call the act of calling upon the name of the Lord as a means for boasting. He calls it the way of being saved.

You cannot have it both ways. If we are passive in every way to be saved then Paul is a liar. If Paul is a liar in one thing he is a liar in all things and we have no surety of Election. If you conclude that if we are active in any way means that we subjugate the Sovereignty of God and boast of our own free will then Paul again is a liar.

Is there a third option I'm missing or will you just reply with that default comment?

 

[convicted1]

Brother Padre,

SBM is a sad soul...pay no attention to him...

 

[PreachTony]

Lol, begin noticing the salvation statements whenever you check out other's profiles. "I accepted" is a quite common articulation.

"...Sirs, what must I DO to be saved? And they said, DON"T DO ANYTHING, THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO, JUST WAIT ON GOD AND SEE IF HE HAS CHOSEN YOU TO BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." - (Calvin Version)

This is salvation by works, by what a person does. If I reach out to accept something that is my effort, that is reason to boast !

According to some Cals in this discussion, the following verse speak of "works" done by man:

And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Consider this episode in which Jesus Himself speaks to the "works" of people:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The "works" in question were actual works, not mere actions such as having faith, or calling on the name of the Lord, or believing. Those of us who are called to preach are not saved because we are called to preach. Rather, I believe, we are called to preach because we are saved.

 

[Van]

How many times have we seen this Calvinist OP Fallacy presented? 10, 100, 1000?

1) People make decisions based on what they think is best. If a person was raised in a Christian home, so they learned of the love and kindness of God, and the snares of the devil, they are more likely to choose to love Jesus with all their heart. Thus, as ambassadors, we are not only to plant, but also to cultivate, to water, and to walk the talk so we lead others to Christ as best we can.

2) Note the repeat of the claim non-Cal's do not believe in Election. Utter nonsense, we do not believe in Unconditional Election. Calvinists just repeat their mantra.

3) Who makes the difference in being saved or lost? Do non-Cal's say we saved ourselves? Yes some do, but others do not. I believe God, when He accepts our worthless filthy rag faith, and credits it as righteousness or not, makes the actual difference in being saved or not. Anyone can believe till the cows come home, if God does not credit it as righteousness, no salvation occurs. Thus we boast in the Lord and not in ourselves.

To which a Calvinist replied, you a boaster! You have got to love them folks. They copy and paste arguments, but can offer nothing but personal attacks to biblically based corrections.

 

[savedbymercy]

How many times have we seen this Calvinist OP Fallacy presented? 10, 100, 1000?

1) People make decisions based on what they think is best. If a person was raised in a Christian home, so they learned of the love and kindness of God, and the snares of the devil, they are more likely to choose to love Jesus with all their heart. Thus, as ambassadors, we are not only to plant, but also to cultivate, to water, and to walk the talk so we lead others to Christ as best we can.

2) Note the repeat of the claim non-Cal's do not believe in Election. Utter nonsense, we do not believe in Unconditional Election. Calvinists just repeat their mantra.

3) Who makes the difference in being saved or lost? Do non-Cal's say we saved ourselves? Yes some do, but others do not. I believe God, when He accepts our worthless filthy rag faith, and credits it as righteousness or not, makes the actual difference in being saved or not. Anyone can believe till the cows come home, if God does not credit it as righteousness, no salvation occurs. Thus we boast in the Lord and not in ourselves.

To which a Calvinist replied, you a boaster! You have got to love them folks. They copy and paste arguments, but can offer nothing but personal attacks to biblically based corrections.

Trying to give yourself an excuse for your pride and boasting !

 

[savedbymercy]

pad

You have said repeatedly that if a person does not hold your position concerning Election they are not truly saved. By your logic, holding that doctrinal position is an act of human will. If any active participation by an individual is a demonstration of free will then you, too, are boasting by default.

Those Christ died for are born into the world as sinners already Justified before God, already reconciled to God, accepted in the Beloved, already totally forgiven by God, all based upon what Christ did. Their believing had nothing to do with it, they did not hold any doctrinal position for it to happen, no act of their will did it, in fact, they were by nature God's Enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[DHK]

Trying to give yourself an excuse for your pride and boasting !

Invalid comment !

 

[savedbymercy]

Invalid comment !

What about post 73, is that what I stated invalid ?

 

[DHK]

What about post 73, is that what I stated invalid ?

It is very invalid. I would even go as far as to say it is heresy.

Those Christ died for are born into the world as sinners already Justified before God, already reconciled to God, accepted in the Beloved, already totally forgiven by God, all based upon what Christ did. Their believing had nothing to do with it, they did not hold any doctrinal position for it to happen, no act of their will did it, in fact, they were by nature God's Enemies Rom 5:10

No one is born already justified. That is heresy.
We are all born sinners--elect and non-elect alike. That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus: "You must be born again." Nicodemus was among the unregenerate, not saved, not justified. Later he became born again and justified; not before that time. God works within the confines of time, even though he observes from outside time. He created time for man.

He accepted Nicodemus only after Nicodemus accepted him. Hence the statement "You must be born again" to Nicodemus, would have been a ridiculous statement for Christ, the mighty Creator, to make.
God works within the confines of time. Elect or not, Nicodemus had to use his will, his freedom of choice to accept what Christ had to offer before Christ could accept him.

 

[thatbrian]

It is very invalid. I would even go as far as to say it is heresy.

No one is born already justified. That is heresy.
We are all born sinners--elect and non-elect alike. That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus: "You must be born again." Nicodemus was among the unregenerate, not saved, not justified. Later he became born again and justified; not before that time. God works within the confines of time, even though he observes from outside time. He created time for man.

He accepted Nicodemus only after Nicodemus accepted him. Hence the statement "You must be born again" to Nicodemus, would have been a ridiculous statement for Christ, the mighty Creator, to make.
God works within the confines of time. Elect or not, Nicodemus had to use his will, his freedom of choice to accept what Christ had to offer before Christ could accept him.

A agree with the first half of your post, but not the second.

How does one make themselves born? They have nothing to do with it. I'm sure that's why Jesus uses the analogy. He also goes on to say that the wind (The Holy Spirit) "blows" where it will. In other words, we don't control the wind, or even see it coming. We only know there's wind because we see its effects.

 

[DHK]

A agree with the first half of your post, but not the second.

How does one make themselves born? They have nothing to do with it. I'm sure that's why Jesus uses the analogy. He also goes on to say that the wind (The Holy Spirit) "blows" where it will. In other words, we don't control the wind, or even see it coming. We only know there's wind because we see its effects.

How is a man born again? The key lies in 1Pet.1:23.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The new birth (as described by some here) is a mystical, mysterious, metaphysical (even superstitious) experience whereupon a man goes into his yogic position and while doing nothing, having read nothing, having ever heard anything about Christ; suddenly and mysteriously the Holy Spirit comes strangely and mystically upon him and transforms him from within giving him a new heart.
Sorry, I don't believe in fairy tales.

According to Peter he must hear the gospel first. He must have faith in the gospel first.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
It is absolutely necessary to hear the gospel before one is born of the Spirit. It can't happen without the Word of God. Peter says that quite dogmatically.

John reiterates the same truth:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--In the context of the new birth (vs.13), Christ must be received; one must believe on his name. It is imperative.

The gospel must be heard. Faith must be exercised.
Regeneration/salvation/justification all happen at the same time. It is an event, not a process.

 

[savedbymercy]

It is very invalid. I would even go as far as to say it is heresy.

No one is born already justified. That is heresy.
We are all born sinners--elect and non-elect alike. That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus: "You must be born again." Nicodemus was among the unregenerate, not saved, not justified. Later he became born again and justified; not before that time. God works within the confines of time, even though he observes from outside time. He created time for man.

He accepted Nicodemus only after Nicodemus accepted him. Hence the statement "You must be born again" to Nicodemus, would have been a ridiculous statement for Christ, the mighty Creator, to make.
God works within the confines of time. Elect or not, Nicodemus had to use his will, his freedom of choice to accept what Christ had to offer before Christ could accept him.

Wow, you don't have a clue on the efficacious effects of the Death of Christ , that is unbelief !

 

[Revmitchell]

Wow, you don't have a clue

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Boy that is rich.