Wise and Foolish Virgins

[standingfirminChrist]

We are not clothed in the righteous acts of the saints, we are clothed in the Righteousness of Christ and Him alone.

Paul wrote, 'Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ' in Romans 13. He did not say 'Do the works of Daniel or David or Abraham. Nor did he say do your own works.

 

[J. Jump]

I guess Revelation 19 is just lying then: It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

[J. Jump]

Paul wrote, 'Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ' in Romans 13.

That just totally contradicts what you have said that Christ clothes you in His righteousness, becuase Paul say you put Christ on, not let Christ put Himself on you.

It is the subject doing the action, so it is you putting on Christ. That is not eternal salvation, because that is Christ putting Himself on you.

He did not say 'Do the works of Daniel or David or Abraham. Nor did he say do your own works.

That's funny Ephesians 2:10 said we were saved unto good works. If no good works are required of us then why would God tell us that we were saved to do good works?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I guess Revelation 19 is just lying then: It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The righteousness of saints spoken of in verse 8 is not the righteous acts of the saints, but the saints clothed in Christ's righteousness.

We cannot do anything to improve the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Linda64]

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Revelation 19:8)

Where do you find "righteous acts of the saints" in this verse? The righteousness of the saints is the "righteousness of Christ"---no "acts" of the saints here.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

That just totally contradicts what you have said that Christ clothes you in His righteousness, becuase Paul say you put Christ on, not let Christ put Himself on you.

It is the subject doing the action, so it is you putting on Christ. That is not eternal salvation, because that is Christ putting Himself on you.



That's funny Ephesians 2:10 said we were saved unto good works. If no good works are required of us then why would God tell us that we were saved to do good works?

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship (not our own works, lest we boast), created in Christ Jesus unto good works (His works, not ours), which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (His works, not ours).

 

[J. Jump]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship (not our own works, lest we boast), created in Christ Jesus unto good works (His works, not ours), which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (His works, not ours).

Of course they are His works, but we are given credit for doing them, so they are our works as well. God's grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving man credit as if he did it himself.

Do you think Paul literally meant that he finished the race and that he finished the good fight. Of course not. He knew and understood that God accomplished this through him, but that God was going to credit it to his account as if he did it so he could say "I" finished the race and "I" fought the good fight.

If we don't have any works to do, then what in the world are we still doing here. Why doesn't God just take us home the moment we are saved.

Oh because we have work to be done. His work, but we must do it. And we must accomplish it through His grace so that He will credit it to our account.

Where do you find "righteous acts of the saints" in this verse? The righteousness of the saints is the "righteousness of Christ"---no "acts" of the saints here.

Linda thanks for joining in our discussion. The word used in Revelation is plural. So if you wanted a literal rendering it would be the righteousnesses of saints. But that just doesn't sound good. It is to be understood as righteous acts of the saints.

The righteousness of Christ would a be a singular righteousness that was put on the Christian. But in Revelation the Christian is instructed to clothe himself/herself.

The righteousness of saints spoken of in verse 8 is not the righteous acts of the saints, but the saints clothed in Christ's righteousness.

Then why does it say the righteous acts of the saints instead of the righteousness of Christ? Do you think the Holy Spirit made a mistake or just goofed up and put saints instead of Christ?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Then why does it say the righteous acts of the saints instead of the righteousness of Christ? Do you think the Holy Spirit made a mistake or just goofed up and put saints instead of Christ?

It does not say righteous acts of the saints... It says the righteousness of saints. Christ is our righteousness. He imputes His righteousness unto us when we place our faith in His finished work on the cross.

 

[Marcia]

I read through the several pages about the oil in the lamps. Whether the foolish virgins had oil or not, they were unable to enter the bridegroom's house because at that point, their lamps were out and they could not light them. That is the point of the story, imo.

Fred Wight, a respected authority on biblical matters, in Manners and Customs of Bible Lands, on p. 132, says that without a torch or lamp (I assume a lit one, since it was always night), the invited guest could not take part in the procession or enter the bridegroom's house. Wight refers to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins and says that the foolish virgins could not proceed with the wise virgins because they did not have the reserve oil to light their lamps, and so were barred from the wedding feast.

This parable is similar to the one Jesus told about the wedding guest thrown out because he was not dressed in wedding attire, and to the one about those invited to the feast who declined the invitation.

I believe all of these parables shows the unsaved vs. the saved. The foolish virgins thought they could participate, but were not able to; they were excluded.

I think way back on p. 10 maybe, Tiny Tim made an excellent point about this possibly representing unsaved Israel, assuming that its works would merit righteousness. I tend to agree - these foolish virgins could be unsaved Israel. Jesus did tell other parables about Israel.

If the wedding feast represents Jesus coming for his bride, the church, then all those saved are part of the church. No saved person is excluded from fellowship with Christ.

JJump, I know you disagree but you have not been able to show your view in scripture.

 

[J. Jump]

It does not say righteous acts of the saints... It says the righteousness of saints.

SFIC go back and look at the original langauge. The word is plural. You can't make a plural word a singluar word just because it doesn't fit your theology.

It righteousnesses of the saints. So each saint has more than one righteousness, which means it is not talking about the righteousness of Christ. Again the text says clothe yourself. You don't clothe your self in Christ's righteousness He clothes you! HUGE difference.

Again it is plain that despite what Scripture says you are going to hold on to your man-made tradition even though it CLEARLY goes against the teaching of Scripture.

 

[J. Jump]

JJump, I know you disagree but you have not been able to show your view in scripture.

That is absolutely a false statement. You just don't like what I've had to say. That doesn't make it false because Marcia doesn't like it.

so were barred from the wedding feast.

EXACTLY!!!! That's been my whole point all along. They were barred from the wedding, not from being saved. The wedding and salvation are two different issues.

If the wedding feast represents Jesus coming for his bride, the church, then all those saved are part of the church.

All of the saved are a part of the church, but all of the church is not a part of the bride, which this text plainly shows. And the parables below it. And the parable of the wedding feast, and on and on and on. And yet Marcia says I haven't proven my point by Scripture

 

[Linda64]

All of the saved are a part of the church, but all of the church is not a part of the bride, which this text plainly shows. And the parables below it. And the parable of the wedding feast, and on and on and on. And yet Marcia says I haven't proven my point by Scripture

J. Jump--

Are you a "Baptist Brider"? From what I am reading in the above quote "All of the saved are a part of the church, but all of the church is not a part of the bride.", I see Baptist Brider written all over it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

SFIC go back and look at the original langauge. The word is plural. You can't make a plural word a singluar word just because it doesn't fit your theology.

Let's just see what the Greek says, shall we?

dikaiwma dikaioma dik-ah'-yo-mah

from 1344; an equitable deed; by implication, a statute or decision:--judgment, justification, ordinance, righteousness.

I see no plural here.

It righteousnesses of the saints. So each saint has more than one righteousness, which means it is not talking about the righteousness of Christ.

If man has to be clothed in his own righteousness and Christ's righteousness, then Christ death on the cross was not sufficient. I am overjoyed in being able to tell you that my Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood on Calvary for all mankind. The blood shed that day was sufficient to cleanse me totally and to sign my pardon completely. I can do no more to add to what has already been done by Him.

Again the text says clothe yourself. You don't clothe your self in Christ's righteousness He clothes you! HUGE difference.

Funny, the Bible tells us to put on the Lord Jesus Christ. It also tells us to put on the breastplate of righteousness. It is not our righteousness, but Christ's.

Again it is plain that despite what Scripture says you are going to hold on to your man-made tradition even though it CLEARLY goes against the teaching of Scripture.

All I have shared is scripture and I have not leaned to man-made tradition. We are to be clothed in His righteousness. If we add our own righteousness, we are putting filthy clothes on with clean clothes.

 

[J. Jump]

Are you a "Baptist Brider"? From what I am reading in the above quote "All of the saved are a part of the church, but all of the church is not a part of the bride.", I see Baptist Brider written all over it.

I'm not sure, because I have not heard that before. Can you explain to me or point me to some reference material?

 

[J. Jump]

Funny, the Bible tells us to put on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Exactly...which shows you are contradicting yourself, but you won't admit it. Eternal salvation is Christ clothing you with His righteousness, which means that us putting on Christ, must mean something else.

You again have failed to show how your stance of only needing Christ's righteousness meshes with the verses that say we are to clothe ourselves? Either Christ does the work on our behalf or we do it? Which is it, becuase it can't be both.

Once again what you are doing is trying to make two distinct messages speak of the same message.

If man has to be clothed in his own righteousness and Christ's righteousness, then Christ death on the cross was not sufficient.

See this is what I'm talking about. I am speaking of man clothing himself with righteous acts, which has NOTHING to do with eternal salvation. And you try to say that Christ's death means nothing.

Saints are not to clothe themselves in righteous acts for eternal salvation, but for the something else.

You've got to quit understanding everything under the scope of eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is a one-time event and after that it is never the focus of conversation again. We are to move on to the next phase. But you make everything in a Christians life tie into eternal salvation and that's just not the way the Bible lays it out.

 

[J. Jump]

I see no plural here.

It's hard for me to show you because I'm not Greek expert, so hopefully HoG can add to what I'm about to say if I have missed the mark.

But after just a bit of research it seems as though whether something is plural or singular is not shown in the actual word, but in the article in front of the word.

And so by looking at the Greek word only you will not see this, but when you look at the article "the" in the Greek it is actually plural.

So it seems as though it is actually plural.

 

[Linda64]

I'm not sure, because I have not heard that before. Can you explain to me or point me to some reference material?

Here is a brief definition of "Baptist Brider"--

It is a belief that the Baptist church is the only true church - therefore the only "Bride of Christ" (as the church is the bride of Christ - but they do not believe all true believers and churches constitute the Bride, only theirs). It is sometimes referred to as "Landmark Baptist."

 

[Brother Bob]

Choose the good part

This parable is no different that the one where a man built his house on the sand and another built on a rock. The one on the Rock which is Christ was saved and the one who built on the sand was lost and so were the foolish virgins. peace.raise:

 

[J. Jump]

Here is a brief definition of "Baptist Brider"--

It is a belief that the Baptist church is the only true church - therefore the only "Bride of Christ" (as the church is the bride of Christ - but they do not believe all true believers and churches constitute the Bride, only theirs). It is sometimes referred to as "Landmark Baptist."

ABSOLUTELY NOT...I would not endorse that false teaching at all.

ALL Christians despite denominations are a part of the church. And ALL faithful, obedient, overcoming Christians regardless of denominations will be a part of the bride of Christ.

However there are going to be unfaithful, disobedient and non-overcoming Christians from every denomination.

By the way that goes hand in hand with some of the Churches of Christ churches (now won't that be funny when Landmark Baptist and Church of Christ members actually meet each other - can't you just see that conversation - I thought we were the only ones going to be here, hey I thought we were the only ones going to be here - )

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Here is a very interesting article I ran across that says the groom or his father, when sending out invitations, also sent out lamps for those attending the festivities.

If this is true, the lamps the virgins carry in Matthew 25 could very well be new lamps, never before burned.

http://www.geocities.com/kibotos2002/wedding.html