Wise and Foolish Virgins

[Marcia]

The wedding and salvation are two different issues.

They are different events, but you have not shown from the Bible that saved people are excluded from the wedding.

All of the saved are a part of the church, but all of the church is not a part of the bride, which this text plainly shows.

The text shows no such thing. You keep saying it does, but it doesn't. I've looked. It's not there.

 

[J. Jump]

This parable is no different that the one where a man built his house on the sand and another built on a rock. The one on the Rock which is Christ was saved and the one who built on the sand was lost and so were the foolish virgins.

Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Well it looks as though works are involved, so this can't be speaking of eternal salvation. No works still means no works!

 

[J. Jump]

Here is a very interesting article I ran across that says the groom or his father, when sending out invitations, also sent out lamps for those attending the festivities.

If this is true, the lamps the virgins carry in Matthew 25 could very well be new lamps, never before burned.

This just keeps getting better and better. So now not only are we supposed to believe they were brand new lamps that had never been burned before, but now we are to believe that either the bridegroom or the father was wealthy enough to send out a brand new lamp to every wedding guest.

More please, more. This is like comedy central :laugh: No my side please stop my side :laugh: Oh man...

 

[Bro Tony]

Does anyone besides me think that some are reading more into the parable and being so nit picky that they have lost the plain meaning of why Jesus used the story in the first place?

Bro Tony

 

[J. Jump]

They are different events, but you have not shown from the Bible that saved people are excluded from the wedding.

If you see that these are two totally different events then you should be able to see that the text we are talking about says there will be saved people excluded from the wedding.

You should be able to see from the parable of the wedding feast there will be saved individuals excluded from the wedding feast.

Again why do you think Christ is going to wed Himself to an unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christian?

 

[J. Jump]

Does anyone besides me think that some are reading more into the parable and being so nit picky that they have lost the plain meaning of why Jesus used the story in the first place?

Yes...The parable is telling Christians you better be ready for the coming of Christ, because there are consequences if you are not!

 

[Brother Bob]

You are either saved or you are not. All this about Christians having to pay this and that is nonsense. We either will hear Him say "Come" or we will hear Him say "Depart" and that is it. peace

Also, if you will look close at Eph 1 it is talking about the works of the Law like circumcism. In that time there were among them those still trying to justify themselves by the works of the Law. peace :wavey:

I think you have to "believe, repent and be baptized" if you want to call it works be my guest.

 

[Linda64]

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

You are either saved or you are lost---ALL the saved are the Church--the Bride--not part of the Bride.

 

[Marcia]

If you see that these are two totally different events then you should be able to see that the text we are talking about says there will be saved people excluded from the wedding.

No, I don't see that. You keep saying it's there, but as of yet, you have not shown it to be there. That is because you are reading it into the text. Do you know what eisegesis means?

You should be able to see from the parable of the wedding feast there will be saved individuals excluded from the wedding feast.

No, it's not there. You keep saying it is, but you have given no biblical support for it.

Again why do you think Christ is going to wed Himself to an unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christian

Christ is going to wed himself to the church. The church is the body of believers. None of us are faithful and obedient though we are to strive for that - we all only have the righteousness of Christ. Those whose works did not glorify Christ will have their works burnt up (and I'm sure all believers will have at least some of their works burned up) but we are all only righteous in Christ. There is no righteousness apart from Him.

You are making a separation in the body of Christ I see nowhere in scripture. The body of Christ is whole, it is one in Him.

All believers are one in Christ.

so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Rom 1.25

For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
1 Cor 12.12

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3.23

I have been giving biblical support against your statements, but you have given zero biblical support for your claims.

 

[J. Jump]

You are either saved or you are not.

To my knowledge no one here has disputed that. That's pretty clear. Either you are or you are not.

ll this about Christians having to pay this and that is nonsense.

Now you are making stuff up, because I haven't seen anything about Christians have to pay this and that. Although that is what Revelation three gives us the picture of, but no one has brought that up yet, so I'm unsure what you are talking about.

We either will hear Him say "Come" or we will hear Him say "Depart" and that is it.

Exactly. That's what I've been trying to say all along. When we stand at the judgment seat of Christ (which there will only be saved people there) we will hear either come or depart. That's exactly my point.

Also, if you will look close at Eph 1 it is talking about the works of the Law like circumcism. In that time there were among them those still trying to justify themselves by the works of the Law.

That may be so, but Paul tells us it is not by any work of righteousness on the part of man. So again no works means exactly what it says no works. No other works other than Jesus Christ are invovled. If anything else is involved then you are contradicting Scripture.

I think you have to "believe, repent and be baptized" if you want to call it works be my guest.

As has been shared with you many times Brother Bob, what you or I or Billy Joe, Sally Sue, the Pope, your childhood preacher, my grandmother, whoever - it doesn't matter what we believe. It only matters what the Bible says and the Bible says believe on Jesus' works not your own.

I don't know how that can be any more plain or simple!

 

[J. Jump]

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

Linda that's a great Scripture. But let me ask you this Linda. How does a dead man die again? Doesn't something have to be living to die?

You are either saved or you are lost---ALL the saved are the Church--the Bride--not part of the Bride.

If you believe that, and it seems as though you do, you have put a great number of contradictions on the Bible.

And could you also exaplain to me why Christ would want to wed Himself to an unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christian?

Would you want to marry someone that committed habitual adultery? That doesn't make a lot of sense does it? So why does Christ marrying someone like that make sense?

 

[J. Jump]

No, I don't see that. You keep saying it's there, but as of yet, you have not shown it to be there. That is because you are reading it into the text.

Actually I and HoG have shown you and you just ignore what we have shown you.

In fact I have shown exactly how absurd it is and how far you have to go to believe what you believe. You have to read into the text that when it says no oil it means no extra oil or no oil in their lamp. Not only can they not only have no oil in their lamp, but they can not have oil on the wick, which means they have to have a brand new lamp. And now someone comes along with a website that says the bridegroom or father sent out lamps for the guest, so now you have to accept that the father or the bridegroom one was weathly enough to buy brand new lamps for every guest.

Do you see how far you have to get away from the text to believe like you all do?

No, it's not there. You keep saying it is, but you have given no biblical support for it.

You're kidding right? The parable of the wedding feast is not Biblical? That story is in the Bible. How is that not Biblical support?

Christ is going to wed himself to the church. The church is the body of believers.

You give no Biblical support for this, so I guess I'm just supposed to take Marcia's word for it. Please show me Scripture where it says that Christ will marry every member of the church and the show me in the OT where you can find that same teaching, because if its in the NT it will be in the OT as well.

None of us are faithful and obedient though we are to strive for that - we all only have the righteousness of Christ.

See you have an incorrect view of what faithful and obedient are. You are saying we are not perfect and I agree we are not perfect. But being faithful and obedient are not the same as perfect. There has only been one perfect.

Being obedient and faithful means when you mess up you do what is necessary to right the wrong.

Paul said according to the Law I am blameless. And it is also said of Zaccariah and Elizabeth. Do you think that meant that didn't sin? Of course not. They sinned, but when they did they did what was necessary under the law to right their wrong.

God tells us to not sin, but when we do sin if we will confess it He is faithful and just to forgive us.

No one is saying you have to be perfect, but you have to be faithful, obedient and overcoming.

Those whose works did not glorify Christ will have their works burnt up (and I'm sure all believers will have at least some of their works burned up) but we are all only righteous in Christ.

For eternal purposes we are only righteous in Christ. At the Judgment seat it will be "your" works and "my" works that are judged. And unfortunately there will be Christians that have ALL their works burned, but they are still saved.

And that's the whole point of Matthew 25. The judgment seat of Christ is in view, and the only ones that stand at the JSOC are saved individuals. Some will be prepared and some will not. Some will have their works stand and some will not.

See how the Bible all flows together into one nice complete picture.

There is no righteousness apart from Him.

For eternal purposes that is correct!

You are making a separation in the body of Christ I see nowhere in scripture. The body of Christ is whole, it is one in Him.

I'm not separating the body into different parts, I'm just saying as Scripture says that not all the body will be the bride. We are all the body, but we are not all the bride. That's what Scripture says, so I believe it.

All believers are one in Christ.

For eternal positional purposes that is absolutely correct.

I have been giving biblical support against your statements, but you have given zero biblical support for your claims.

That's just laughable.

 

[Brother Bob]

As has been shared with you many times Brother Bob, what you or I or Billy Joe, Sally Sue, the Pope, your childhood preacher, my grandmother, whoever - it doesn't matter what we believe. It only matters what the Bible says and the Bible says believe on Jesus' works not your own.

I don't know how that can be any more plain or simple!

Acts, chapter 2

"38": Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I agree Jesus made it very plain and simple and no where did he leave out repentance. Also He said Believe and be Baptized. Those are not Bro Bob's words but the words of our Lord, The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. peace

 

[Marcia]

JJump, this is my last post to you on this thread.

Apparently, you are reading into things about the oil in the lamps, etc. I NEVER made a statement about whether the foolish virgins had oil or not. It's essentially irrelevant, because the bottom line is that at the crucial moment, they were unable to light their lamps and were excluded from the wedding feast. This is a picture of not having salvation.

I posted scriptures that show believers are one body in Christ but you have posted no scriptures to show that the bride of Christ is only some believers.

I am supposed to believe that though we are one in Christ, Christ will only wed Himself to some believers, thus dividing his own body. You would also have us believe that Jesus will say to believers -- people indwelt and regenerated by the Holy Spirit -- that he never knew them. This is totally unbiblical. It goes against the Bible and against the nature of Christ and the biblical teachings on the church.

 

[J. Jump]

I agree Jesus made it very plain and simple and no where did he leave out repentance. Also He said Believe and be Baptized. Those are not Bro Bob's words but the words of our Lord, The King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

No you have used Jesus' words with Brother Bob's context, spin and interpretation. A lot of people do that to make the Bible say what they want it to say.

Again Jesus wasn't preaching eternal salvation, He was preaching the kingdom. Until you distinguish between those two messages a clear understanding of Scripture is going to be impossible.

 

[Linda64]

Exactly. That's what I've been trying to say all along. When we stand at the judgment seat of Christ (which there will only be saved people there) we will hear either come or depart. That's exactly my point.

We will NOT hear the word DEPART at the Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (1 Corinthians 3:13)

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (1 Corinthians 3:14)

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

NO departing at that Judgment Seat---which is ONLY for the saved. Jesus Christ will NEVER say to one of His own--Depart from me--I never knew you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (John 10:27)

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

Doing good works won't keep us saved either Gal. 3:3
The believer is "kept by the power of God" (1 Peter 1:5)

 

[J. Jump]

Apparently, you are reading into things about the oil in the lamps, etc.

Apparantly not. I have just stated what the text says. I'm not the one that has had to go off and find some website that talks about giving away free laterns to all the wedding guests. The text says what the text says.

I NEVER made a statement about whether the foolish virgins had oil or not.

Okay, but it's pretty clear by what you say as to what your thoughts are on the matter.

It's essentially irrelevant

Well I can agree and disagree with this portion of your statement.

because the bottom line is that at the crucial moment, they were unable to light their lamps and were excluded from the wedding feast.

That is the bottom line. And you have it right on the button. It has to do with the wedding feast, but then you make this errant statement which contradicts the truth you just proclaimed:

This is a picture of not having salvation.

Because to even have a shot at participating in the wedding a person has to be saved. These five foolish virgins had the opportunity, but they blew it. But just by having the opportunity they were saved, because only saved are in view when talking about the wedding.

The unsaved are not even part of the picture.

 

[J. Jump]

We will NOT hear the word DEPART at the Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ.

That is my prayer and my hope, but that is not a certainty as you want to make it.

NO departing at that Judgment Seat---which is ONLY for the saved. Jesus Christ will NEVER say to one of His own--Depart from me--I never knew you.

That a personal opinion you are placing on Scripture. The parables are speaking of the judgment seat of Christ. Look at the parable of the talents and pounds. Those are looking at a saved individuals works.

There are two faithful and one unfaithful in each of the parables. That means there are going to be some unfaithful Christians at the JSOC and they will hear those dreaded words. It's not going to be a pretty picture.

But what you are saying is everyone is going to be hunky dory at the JSOC so just go out and live life any ole way you please, becuase everyone gets to rule and reign and everyone gets to do what everyone else gets to do.

So if I get to do what every other Christians gets to do and it doesn't matter how I live my life, then why in the world and I obeying the rules. I can sow my wild oats and when that time comes I will still get to go to the kingdom have have my little patch of paradise.

Do you see the problem you view creates?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Do you see the problem you view creates?

No, but my wife and I both see the problem your view creates.

The Psalmist wrote in Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me. See, we cannot say we belong to Christ and want to hold on to sin.

One can make a profession of faith and continue in sin and expect to be accepted as a part of the body of Christ. Paul wrote Ye cannot serve two masters.

We do not hold to a get saved, live in sin theology. That is just as unscriptural as saying we have to be clothed in both Christ's righteousness and our own or we will not be accepted. It is just as unscriptural as saying not all saved will be present at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

 

[Brother Bob]

No you have used Jesus' words with Brother Bob's context, spin and interpretation. A lot of people do that to make the Bible say what they want it to say.

Again Jesus wasn't preaching eternal salvation, He was preaching the kingdom. Until you distinguish between those two messages a clear understanding of Scripture is going to be impossible.

So you can be part of the Kingdom but not saved? Also, I am a preacher. I am used to putting Scriptures in a way that the Congregation can understand. They have their Bibles to read after me. bless,

The very idea that Saved Christians would hear the Lord say depart goes against ever Scripture in the Bible and against the very reason Jesus came and died. amazing!!!