Wise and Foolish Virgins

[Linda64]

Linda if you haven't figured it out yet, cherry picking verses in Scripture is EXTREMELY dangerous. You can prove just about any kind of false teaching you want to when cherry picking verses.

Your husband does a fantastic job of it, and that's why it's easy to tell he doesn't know the flow of Scripture well.

I don't want to pick cherries (although I love cherries), because it's not the way to interpret Scripture. You have to compare like Scripture with like Scripture. Not this Scripture with that Scripture because it proves my point.

Scripture gets to tell us what it means, not we get to tell Scripture what it means by making our own combonations.

All I am getting from your posts is "works salvation"--you have to "work" to prove yourself to God. If you are born again, you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ--what part of that do you not understand? We are saved by grace and kept by grace. Seems that you are into Galationism.

 

[Brother Bob]

Matthew, chapter 19

"5": And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

 

[J. Jump]

SFIC you have to go a bit further into the story to see the wedding garment. Verse 65 tells us what this looks like Then she took her veil and covered herself.

And your verse does not tell us that she was given the veil.

 

[J. Jump]

All I am getting from your posts is "works salvation"--you have to "work" to prove yourself to God.

Then you obviously haven't been paying very close attention, because works based salvation is a false teaching and I have spent many hours on this board making sure that folks know that.

What you and many others are doing is trying to combine two distinct messages and trying to make everything talk about eternal salvation.

Eternal salvation is based solely on the works of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who shed His blood and died on the cross to pay my sin debt. The moment I believed that I was saved. Done deal. Never to be changed. The matter of eternal salvation has never come up again since 1988 and will never come up again, becuase I am saved. Period. End of dicussion as far as the Bible is concerned.

However once eternal salvation is out of the way then another aspect of Christendom comes into view and that is righteous living. I am to living according to Scripture after I am saved.

What is the point of me living rightly if everyone is going to be the bride of Christ? Why should I deny myself and live for Christ now if I get to be a part of the bride no matter how I live life?

Again you would marry someone that was a habitual cheater, so why do you expect Christ to marry someone that lives for self and cheats on Him?

It doesn't make sense. The only thing that makes sense and it's exactly what the Bible teaches is that those who live according to Scripture get to become the bride of Christ. And those that don't live right don't get to, but they are eternally saved.

If you are born again, you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ--what part of that do you not understand?

That's absolutely right for eternal purposes. But being the bride has to do with the kingdom which is not eternity, but 1,000 years in length. So there are different requirements for participation in the kingdom.

See if you all would keep these messages separate instead of trying to make everything about eternal salvation you would see this.

Seems that you are into Galationism.

Man and I'm the one persecuting your husband. Better check again, because that's the second time you've accused me of being something I'm not. Care to explain what that is so I know what I'm denying

 

[Brother Bob]

Why does it say the 1000 years is in past tense? You see I don't believe in a 1000 years yet to come. Jesus never mentioned anything about a 1000 years but the Scripture says 1 day as a 1000 years and visa versa. I believe in a resurrection yet to come of all that are in the grave unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them that have done evil the resurrection of damnation. Anyway, if you will read the chapter close about the 1000 years you will see it is only souls that lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years not both souls and bodies.

 

[J. Jump]

Why does it say the 1000 years is in past tense?

Not sure what you are talking about here. Reference?

You see I don't believe in a 1000 years yet to come.

Well the Bible says it's going to be a 1,000 years, so we had better believe it!

Jesus never mentioned anything about a 1000 years

No He didn't mention the phrase 1,000 years. He preached His kingdom, which when we compare Scripture with Scripture we will find throughout Scripture that it is 1,000 years, becusae it's the only thing that fits.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Luke 18:13: And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I say this quite frequently. There's a verse you may have heard of, it's in 1 John, and it goes something like this: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins."

Trust me; I'm not praying to be saved multiple times daily.

 

[Hope of Glory]

That word may be plural, but it is plural because it is God's Righteousness given to many, to all the saints. It does not mean we have to have our own righteousness. Our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before the Lord. God would not accept us clothed in our own righteousness.

If the writer had just said saint instead of saints, the word righteousness would have been used in the singular. But it would still be God's righteousness and not ours.

This twist job needs to be framed. It's a real piece of work.

 

[Brother Bob]

You see I don't believe in a 1000 years yet to come. Well the Bible says it's going to be a 1,000 years, so we had better believe it!

Revelation, chapter 20

"4": And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It does not mention Christ on earth. And it does not mention us, it says "they" lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[J. Jump]

Revelation, chapter 20

"4": And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Bob John was seeing things that are going to take place in the future. He saw the 1,000-year reign and then he saw things that were to take place after the 1,000-year reign.

That's why it is past tense. It doesn't mean it has already happened. It will happen in the future, of that you can be 100% sure!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Perfect idea. Now let's actually compare Scripture with right Scripture. Your passage is a nice passage and a great picture of the Father and His wife Israel. But that's not the picture of Christ and His bride.

You want to see a OT type of Christ and His bride look at Adam and Eve. The church is the body of Christ. And just like Eve came from part of Adam so Christ's bride will come from part of His body.

Look at the story of Isaac and Rebekah. Abraham (God) sent out his servant (Holy Spirit) and told him to go to his famiy (saved people) and find a bride for Isaac (Jesus). So he goes back to Abraham's people and part of that family becomes the bride. Not all the family, but part of the family.

You can see these truths in Ruth as well. "Wash yourself therefore, and anoint yourself and put on your best clothes, and go down to the threshing floor;

Yes, if you go back to the story of Eleazar and Rebekkah, Eleazar (a picture of the Holy Spirit) gave the garments to Rebekkah for her to clothe herself when she went to meet her groom. She remained uncovered until she went to meet her groom, and it is very interesting that Rebekah's brother and mother, both in the family, were not given jewels of silver and gold, nor raiment, but they were given precious things.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Paul taught Christ is not divided in 1 Corinthians, yet it certainly appears some are trying to divide Christ. Saying He will cast some of the saved into outer darkness.

Hogwash!

 

[Hope of Glory]

All I am getting from your posts is "works salvation"

I don't understand how you could get that, since that is diametrically opposed to what he has been stating explicitly and unambiguously.

 

[Brother Bob]

saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus;and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I don't know how you get the future out of the past. The Scripture says the past not the future. But this is a great big can of worms and I guess we don't want to hijack this thread for that.

 

[Linda64]

Then you obviously haven't been paying very close attention, because works based salvation is a false teaching and I have spent many hours on this board making sure that folks know that.

I've been paying very close attention--I see "saved by grace and kept by works of the flesh" (which is the error of Galatianism)

What you and many others are doing is trying to combine two distinct messages and trying to make everything talk about eternal salvation.

There is only one message--Man is a sinner--sin separates man from a Holy God--Jesus Christ died to save sinners in order to redeem sinful men. 1 Cor. 15:3-4.

Eternal salvation is based solely on the works of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who shed His blood and died on the cross to pay my sin debt. The moment I believed that I was saved. Done deal. Never to be changed. The matter of eternal salvation has never come up again since 1988 and will never come up again, becuase I am saved. Period. End of dicussion as far as the Bible is concerned.

However once eternal salvation is out of the way then another aspect of Christendom comes into view and that is righteous living. I am to living according to Scripture after I am saved.

Eternal salvation is never out of the way--here is where you get into a "works salvation"--of course, we are to live righteously, but it is not by OUR OWN righteousness--it is the righteousness of Christ working THROUGH us. (Eph. 2:10)

What is the point of me living rightly if everyone is going to be the bride of Christ? Why should I deny myself and live for Christ now if I get to be a part of the bride no matter how I live life?

Eternal salvation does NOT teach that you can live any way you want after you are saved. Do a study on Rom. 6-8. We are to live holy lives--it DOES matter how we live now.

Again you would marry someone that was a habitual cheater, so why do you expect Christ to marry someone that lives for self and cheats on Him?

Jesus is coming back for a Church without spot or blemish (Eph. 5:27) If the Church is without spot or blemish, glorious and holy, as the scripture says, the Church must be the Bride, not part of the Bride.....the Bride cannot be anymore pure and holy as it is described in Eph. 5:27--

It doesn't make sense. The only thing that makes sense and it's exactly what the Bible teaches is that those who live according to Scripture get to become the bride of Christ. And those that don't live right don't get to, but they are eternally saved.

Those who put their trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ (by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; not of works, lest any man should boast) are members of the Body/Bride of Christ, the Church--the results of that grace is holy living according to Scriptures--and that holy living is done through the power of the Holy Spirit Who indwells all the true believers. We all start out as "babes" and we are to desire the "sincere milk of the word"--that's how we grow spiritually--and we all grow at different rates. Some people remain "babes" for most of their Christian lives, but they are STILL members of His Body/the Bride. The ENTIRE Church is the Bride. The Church consists of ALL born again believers, both Jew and Gentile.

That's absolutely right for eternal purposes. But being the bride has to do with the kingdom which is not eternity, but 1,000 years in length. So there are different requirements for participation in the kingdom.

See if you all would keep these messages separate instead of trying to make everything about eternal salvation you would see this.

We are the Bride of Christ FOREVER--when we receive Christ, we are made partakers of His eternal life--like I said, there is only ONE message--we either trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for our salvation and live with God eternally or we reject God's gift of salvation and live eternally separated from God--which is the second death.

Man and I'm the one persecuting your husband. Better check again, because that's the second time you've accused me of being something I'm not. Care to explain what that is so I know what I'm denying

Not an accusation, simply an observation. I explained Galatianism in this post--"saved by grace and kept by works of the flesh." (Galatians 3:3)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

 

[J. Jump]

I don't know how you get the future out of the past.

Come on Brother Bob did you not read my response? John was looking into the future. He was being shown things that WILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE. Now he was shown this people ruling and reigning and then he saw events after that period, so that makes it past tense in relation to what he was looking at.

If it is past tense please tell me what 1,000 years did Christ rule over the earth with the souls of the beheaded? When was the tribulation? Because this rule comes after the tribulation.

Maybe we do need to start a new thread. But again this is one of those really simple things that shouldn't take much to see.

 

[Hope of Glory]

That is generally called prophetic past tense. When giving a complete vision of what is going to happen, the story is related as already having happened. For example, if you were going to tell the story of a football game, without error, you might say, "After the kickoff, the QB passed the ball to..."

 

[Brother Bob]

Where does it say it comes after the tribulation?

HoG and JJ ; explain why John only saw the souls and tell me where it says when this took place. Also, it says they were Martyrs so that leaves you and I out of it. Also it says "lived" as in already happened. Also it is referring to the souls that were under the Altar of God that were given white robes and told to rest a little while longer.

• First, it does not mention the second coming of Christ.
• Second, it does not mention a reign on earth.
• Third, this passage does not mention a bodily resurrection.
• Fourth, it does not mention Christ on earth.
• And fifth, it does not mention us, it says "they" lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[J. Jump]

I see "saved by grace and kept by works of the flesh" (which is the error of Galatianism)

Then you are seeing through some tainted glasses, because that's not what I have been saying at all. When a person is saved they are saved. There is nothing to be kept by or from. It's just a done deal. We are saved by grace through faith apart from any works of our own. And at the very moment we believe eternal salvation becomes a non-issue. It's over and done with. The subject will never be brought up again. It's settled.

There is only one message--Man is a sinner--sin separates man from a Holy God--Jesus Christ died to save sinners in order to redeem sinful men. 1 Cor. 15:3-4.[/qutoe]

That's the only message that a dead man in trespasses and sin can hear or understand. But after that man is saved then he needs to hear the good news that Christ rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures and that He took His blood and placed it on the mercy seat in the tabernacle of heaven and He is our Advocate before the Father every making intercession for us if we will confess our sins.

And if we will walk in the Spirit, which manifests the life of Christ through and in our members then one day we will be able to rule and reign with Him in His kingdom. That is the other message that the church hasn't been sharing with people. And the flip side of that message is true also that if you don't live a faithful, obedient, overcoming life you will be saved, but you won't rule and reign.

Two distinct messages in Scripture that must be kept separate for proper understanding.

Eternal salvation is never out of the way

Yes it is. Once you are saved you are saved. Period. Done deal. It can never be lost. It doesn't have to be kept, because there is no chance of losing it.

of course, we are to live righteously, but it is not by OUR OWN righteousness--it is the righteousness of Christ working THROUGH us.

Everything that is done is done by the grace of God. But God's grace is God doing for you what He requires of you and then giving you credit as if you did it yourself.

So techinically they are God's works, but the Bible explains it as our works. It is the work that God does in us, but He gives us credit as if they were our own works.

Eternal salvation does NOT teach that you can live any way you want after you are saved. Do a study on Rom. 6-8. We are to live holy lives--it DOES matter how we live now.

Why does it matter how you live? In your view everyone gets the same thing anyway regardless of how they lived. As long as a person is saved, they get the same deal.

What is the danger of not living a righteous life in your view?

Jesus is coming back for a Church without spot or blemish (Eph. 5:27) If the Church is without spot or blemish, glorious and holy, as the scripture says, the Church must be the Bride, not part of the Bride.....the Bride cannot be anymore pure and holy as it is described in Eph. 5:27

Ephesians 5:27 is full of subjunctive verbs which means it may or may not happen. When you compare Scripture with Scripture you can see that not all Christians are going to be spotless, blameless and without blemish, so the church that goes up in the rapture will not be in this condition, because there will be unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christians present at the time.

If the entire body makes up the bride that totally destroys the types in the OT and makes God's Word a lie.

Those who put their trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ (by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; not of works, lest any man should boast) are members of the Body/Bride of Christ

You say that, but you have yet to show a Scripture that says the entire church is the bride of Christ. I am sure you are a nice lady, but I'm not going to take your word for it.

the results of that grace is holy living according to Scriptures

That SHOULD be the results, but those results are not guaranteed in Scripture. If so please show me that Christians WILL do good works and live righteously.

Some people remain "babes" for most of their Christian lives, but they are STILL members of His Body/the Bride.

Are you kidding me? God demands that we grow, and you say that a Christian that does not grow, totally disobeying what God demands will be a part of the bride. Not going to happen.

Again you have failed to answer my question. Why would you not marry someone that you knew was unfaithful, but you place that demand on Christ?

We are the Bride of Christ FOREVER--when we receive Christ, we are made partakers of His eternal life--like I said, there is only ONE message--we either trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for our salvation and live with God eternally or we reject God's gift of salvation and live eternally separated from God--which is the second death.

Eternal life and the wedding are two totally separate messages. You wil continue to confuse the situation and place multiple contradictions on the Scripture until you separate these messages.

It has been clearly shown to you that these messages are distinct and have different purposes. You can continue to deny them and ignore them, but it doesn't make the Truth go away.

Not an accusation, simply an observation.

You said I was acting like a whatever it was you said, but that's not an accusation. Sure sounds like one to me!

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Great passage of Scripture that describes PERFECTLY the salvation of the soul I Peter 1:9.

 

[J. Jump]

Where does it say it comes after the tribulation?

HoG and JJ ; explain why John only saw the souls and tell me where it says when this took place. Also, it says they were Martyrs so that leaves you and I out of it. Also it says "lived" as in already happened. Also it is referring to the souls that were under the Altar of God that were given white robes and told to rest a little while longer.

• First, it does not mention the second coming of Christ.
• Second, it does not mention a reign on earth.
• Third, this passage does not mention a bodily resurrection.
• Fourth, it does not mention Christ on earth.
• And fifth, it does not mention us, it says "they" lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I honestly can't believe I need to walk you step by step, but here goes.

And I saw the R995 souls of those who had been beheaded because of their F230 testimony R996 of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped R997 the beast or his image, and had not received the mark R998 on their forehead and on their hand;

These people were believers during the tribulation. The tribulation is when you will have the mark of the beast and you won't be able to buy and sell unless you have the mark of the beast and worship the beast.

These people did not worship the beast. They did not receive the mark of the beast, because they were believers in Christ. And because they were saved they were beheaded for their testimony.

and they came R999 to life and reigned R1000 with Christ for a thousand years.

They came to "life" is where we see them getting bodies and they ruled and reigned with Christ during the 1,000-year period that comes after the seven-year tribulation.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This R1001 is the first resurrection.

Here is the resurrection again showing bodies, but only for the saved, not the unsaved.

Blessed R1002 and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second R1003 death has no power, but they will be priests R1004 of God and of Christ and will reign R1005 with Him for a thousand years.

Here is our future aspect. They will reign with Him. In the future this WILL happen. It's a future tense verb. It is understood that you know the reign of Christ begins after His second coming. It shows that this reign will be on earth because they are to be priests. There aren't going to be anybody in the heavens or heaven that need a priest during the 1,000 years. But those that survived the 1,000-year period will need a priest.

It does mention a bodily resurrection twice. Now the word body isn't in there, but that's what resurrection is all about.

No it doesn't mention us, becuase Christians will have already been dealt with during this period. Christians are judged directly after the rapture and before the second coming.