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Women in Ministry

gekko

New Member
Scripture, however, forbids us to be elders/pastors/bishops.

where does it say that it forbids women to be elders/pastors/bishops. (was a previous question of mine)

Does this friend of yours really want to walk in truth?

yes. and so do i. being open minded is something i value. (not open-minded to obvious false-hoods of course)

----

random question.. may not seem random - is to me though.

this verse:
1 corinthians 14:
34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

why is this verse.. in the middle of a portion of scripture.. speaking about spiritual gifts (mainly that of speaking in tongues)..
-- just wondering what context this verse is in. that is all.
trying to be more 'open-minded' you could say :)

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

how does adam being formed first have anything to do with women not being permitted to teach or to have authority over a man?

i don't think i understand this fully. or at all really. heh.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
where does it say that it forbids women to be elders/pastors/bishops. (was a previous question of mine)
You were given Scritpture from 1 Timothy showing an elder to be the husband of one wife. There is no Scripture that states "women shall not be elders", but neither is their Scritpure stating "thou shall not look upon Playboy" either. If the elder MUST be the husband of one wife, that eliminates women.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
webdog said:
You were given Scritpture from 1 Timothy showing an elder to be the husband of one wife. There is no Scripture that states "women shall not be elders", but neither is their Scritpure stating "thou shall not look upon Playboy" either. If the elder MUST be the husband of one wife, that eliminates women.

So I guess Paul could not be an elder either. As far as we know he was never married.

Phoebe was a deacon .... actually the word that is translated deacon and often servent for Phoebe, is translated 22 times as minister. Wonder why that is that for Phoebe they did not use minister. Guess the translators just could not bring themself to use the word minister a 23rd time. :laugh:
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is "minister" used as a noun or a verb? If it's a noun, then it would be "a minister" whereas if it's a verb, then it's "serve, minister to, do a ministry for" kind of definition. BIG difference IMO. I minister to my family but I'm not a "minister".
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jerome said:
It's a noun.
BIG difference.:thumbs:
Phoebe was "a minister" of the church.

I figure she was also. But you'd better duck ... there are people here who will throw things at you for saying so.:tonofbricks:
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Crabtownboy said:
So I guess Paul could not be an elder either. As far as we know he was never married.

Phoebe was a deacon .... actually the word that is translated deacon and often servent for Phoebe, is translated 22 times as minister. Wonder why that is that for Phoebe they did not use minister. Guess the translators just could not bring themself to use the word minister a 23rd time. :laugh:
You're right...I don't think he could have been, nor was he.

This whole "minister" noun verb debate is pointless. I call her a servant of the church. One can be called a waiter...because that is what they do. Same with minister. I'm a minister...but I'm not a leader in my church.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Crabtownboy said:
I figure she was also. But you'd better duck ... there are people here who will throw things at you for saying so.:tonofbricks:
Are you a minister of the church? I am. Every child of God is called to be a minister, but not everyone is called to be leaders.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Crabtownboy said:
So I guess Paul could not be an elder either. As far as we know he was never married.

Phoebe was a deacon .... actually the word that is translated deacon and often servent for Phoebe, is translated 22 times as minister. Wonder why that is that for Phoebe they did not use minister. Guess the translators just could not bring themself to use the word minister a 23rd time. :laugh:
Many words in the Hebrew and Greek do not coordinate well with the English. Do a study on the word "hate" sometime (sane - Hebrew, miseo - greek). The english doesn't always do it justice. Same with diakonos.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So confusing!
What is the difference between annsni's minister and webdog's minister?
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jerome said:
So confusing!
What is the difference between annsni's minister and webdog's minister?
The context of how it is used.

Example:

All leaders are called to serve, but not all servants are called to lead.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
webdog said:
Many words in the Hebrew and Greek do not coordinate well with the English. Do a study on the word "hate" sometime (sane - Hebrew, miseo - greek). The english doesn't always do it justice. Same with diakonos.

So why not just be honest and say she was a minister???
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Crabtownboy said:
So why not just be honest and say she was a minister???
She was, but she wasn't a leader.

All leaders are called to serve, but not all servants are called to lead.
 

trustitl

New Member
trustitl said:
Does this friend of yours really want to walk in truth? Or are they dead set in their mind and just trying to prove that women can do whatever they want because there is no verse that explicitly says "Women cannot be an elders"?

To undestand this takes an open mind. Yes thats right. Many times people who say that women are limited in the roles they can fill are called close minded, but I find that just the opposite is true. In todays society, someone who is willing to accept God's ways is very open minded.

Concerning your statement of wanting to "get a fresh start" I say that is the best thing I've read on this subject so far. I hope it is sincere.

I would say that you need to begin with your understanding of spheres of authority. We need to accept that there are God ordained structures designed by the creator. Most likely you accept this in principle but are not willing to see that it applies to the church. In addition, a person who has authority is not better or more important that a person who doesn't have that authority, they just have authority that others don't. I am not better or more important than my children, I just have authority over them.

Also, we need to know what authority is as well as what it isn't.

Websters 1828
AUTHOR'ITY, n. [L. auctoritas.]
1. Legal power, or a right to command or to act; as the authority of a prince over subjects, and of parents over children. Power; rule; sway.


This shows us that authority comes from another source. It is a legal right.

RIGHT, a. rite. [L. rectus, from the root of rego, properly to strain or stretch, whence straight.]
2. According to the law or will of God, or to the standard of truth and justice; as, to judge right.

The word rule has sadly taken on a negative connotation over the years because of the many poor rulers in history: Hitler, Nero, Robert Mugabe, Stalin... However, a ruler is what we use when we want to be precise in drawing a straight line or measuring. It is a good things when used properly. Other times it is abused such as when my 3 year old son goes after his older sisters with one.

RULE, n. [L. regula, from rego, to govern, that is, to stretch, strain or make straight.]
3. To manage; to conduct, in almost any manner.


In regards to men and women, God has given the "legal" right to rule home and church to the man. I were to say manage it may be more acceptable because of our understanding of the word according to our experiences. I think it is a good word for this topic.

Here it is important to distinguish the difference between the church and Israel and how Deborah could "judge" Israel. Also, if the person given authority is failing to lead, the source of the authority has the responsiblity to replace the leader with another.

MAN'AGE, v.t.
1. To conduct; to carry on; to direct the concerns of; as, to manage a farm; to manage the affairs of a family.


I think Paul makes it clear that he understood this was his role in the church.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. II Cor. 1:24

I will stop here, but I think it is also important to reconsider what we think "church" is. But, for the sake of time and space that may come later.

"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God" Col 1:9-10

God bless.

Thought I would post this again just in case somebody wanted to more than a tit for tat argument.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
In the home the husband is the spiritual head of the home.

Your wife in that case would have been appointed a role in the church but her role in the home remains unchanged as does yours.

I'm not making much sense of this. In the home my wife would still be an elder, too. If I have spiritual issues, I should talk with my elder...who is my wife...but she's supposed to submit to me...but I need to submit to her...:BangHead:

What is wrong with "If the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense"? The Scripture states "the husband of one wife". Quite simple. The roles of husband to wife, and elder to flock are quite understandable and explained in Scripture.


Miriam was a prophetess.

Deborah a Judge of Israel AND a prophetess.

We have NO indication at all in scripture that your argument was ever entertained such that their husbands were no longer the head of the household.

In 1cor 14 we have the same thing "EACH ONE has a teaching, a tongue, a revelation" without any mention at all that when the Women are included in the body of Christ in that context - they somehow negated the role of the husband in the home.

you speculate a problem that never exists in scripture as "proof" of something???

in Christ,

Bob
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Miriam was a prophetess.

Deborah a Judge of Israel AND a prophetess.
A prophetess is not a leader.
We have NO indication at all in scripture that your argument was ever entertained such that their husbands were no longer the head of the household.
That is an impossibility since Christian husbands make up part of the flock...and the elders are over that flock. It's pretty much common sense from there.
In 1cor 14 we have the same thing "EACH ONE has a teaching, a tongue, a revelation" without any mention at all that when the Women are included in the body of Christ in that context - they somehow negated the role of the husband in the home.
Irrelevant. We are not talking about spiritual gifts.
you speculate a problem that never exists in scripture as "proof" of something???
Specualte a problem? Are you telling me that men have never had a spiritual problem they needed to discuss with church leadership? Fact is, Elders are the spiritual heads of the church, and husbands are the spiritual heads of their home. The only way these both can be true and work is with a man in both positions. You don't stop being an elder once you leave the church, and you don't stop being a husband when you walk out of the home.
 

gekko

New Member
I'm not making much sense of this. In the home my wife would still be an elder, too. If I have spiritual issues, I should talk with my elder...who is my wife...but she's supposed to submit to me...but I need to submit to her...

umm... it's really that simple isn't it? :p
 

trustitl

New Member
Websters 1828

MIN'ISTER, n. [L.]

1. Properly, a chief servant; hence, an agent appointed to transact or manage business under the authority of another; in which sense, it is a word of very extensive application.

Authority in the church and home (both created by God) is given from God himself. He designed both of these as well as the structure of authority in them. It is really pretty simple. We so readily accept authority at work, in law enforcement, on the football field, in court... Why not accept it here?
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
standingfirminChrist said:
1 Timothy 3 says the Bishop is to be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband.

The Bishop is essentially the same as an Elder or Pastor.

Anna in the temple = Luke 2
Woman at the well = John 4
Mary Magdalene and Mary = John 20
Four daughters of Philip = Acts 21

There are other instances, but that is a starter. Keep in mind that they were not pastors, they only ministered.

Deborah was first woman judge in the OT. Book of Judges. Keep in mind she was judge because Barak was weak and would not go as judge.

Rahab the harlot was used = the scarlet thread of redemption.

GE

The first witnesses and first proclaimers = teachers of the Gospel, were women -- even while they were looked down upon by the men -who said they told them 'old wive's tales'.

The same me who before may seem to have said differently, ja.
 
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