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"Women's roles in the church"

C

ChurchofChristguy

Member
This seems to be a popular issue at churches of all flavors these days. Most of the discussion is based not so much about women's roles in the church, but in the church assembly. As an example, our church just announced an expansion of women's roles - allowing women to say a prayer or read a scripture, perhaps help pass out communion trays. There was an outcry from maybe 8-10 families who summarily left over the issue.

This is a difficult issue. I personally don't have a problem with what my church decided, but I can understand people that do. My question is this: If we are going to use Paul's instruction on women in the assembly, don't we have to go "whole hog" on it and not allow them to speak at all? 1 Corinthians 14:34 is explicit: "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak..." Now if we claim "that is just intended for the church at Corinth", or "that was intended only for that culture", then what other parts of the NT do we then decide to disregard on the same basis?

We always have the "out of context" argument, except there is often little agreement over the proper context. And some will say "well Paul was just speaking to that culture..." It seems we all want to pick and choose the things that we feel are applicable today, and summarily discard that which we determine was cultural. Some churches say "yes they can teach kids, but not adults." Others say "they can say a prayer but they can't give a sermon."

Is this something your church is currently dealing with? If so, what are your thoughts?
 
G

Gorship

Active Member
We have other texts that speak on things such as being a deacon or shepherd to call on for roles.

A woman can't be a husband of one wife. For instance.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk
 
Scarlett O.

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
Try reading all of 1 Corinthians 14. Or better yet - all of 1 Corinthians. Paul was writing to a church in a hot mess. Their worship service was chaotic [just one thing - binging out and chugging down one the bread and wine of the Lord's supper like it was party].

In chapter 14, Paul tells three groups of people to "keep silent". He is speaking of abuses in their services that would impede the Word of God from being heard clearly and presented clearly.
  • Those speaking in tongues [only two or three he says and only one at a time he says] with no interpreter. No one to interpret? "Keep silent".
  • Those prophesying - if one is speaking, but the Lord prompts another to speak, the first is to "Keep silent".
  • Paul has already said that women can pray [with head covered] and prophesy. Here he tells women to "keep silent' and ask husbands questions at home. I think that is self-explanatory.
 
C

ChurchofChristguy

Member
Scarlett O. said:
Try reading all of 1 Corinthians 14. Or better yet - all of 1 Corinthians. Paul was writing to a church in a hot mess. Their worship service was chaotic [just one thing - binging out and chugging down one the bread and wine of the Lord's supper like it was party].

In chapter 14, Paul tells three groups of people to "keep silent". He is speaking of abuses in their services that would impede the Word of God from being heard clearly and presented clearly.
  • Those speaking in tongues [only two or three he says and only one at a time he says] with no interpreter. No one to interpret? "Keep silent".
  • Those prophesying - if one is speaking, but the Lord prompts another to speak, the first is to "Keep silent".
  • Paul has already said that women can pray [with head covered] and prophesy. Here he tells women to "keep silent' and ask husbands questions at home. I think that is self-explanatory.
Click to expand...

I've read all of 1 Corinthians, thanks. I'm just starting a discussion - I haven't given my opinion on the matter yet.:Biggrin

Do I assume that, from your interpretation, women can and should do everything in the assembly that a man can do? Female pastors? Leading prayers? Reading scriptures?
 
Scarlett O.

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
ChurchofChristguy said:
Do I assume that, from your interpretation, women can and should do everything in the assembly that a man can do? Female pastors? Leading prayers? Reading scriptures?
Click to expand...

I didn't give an interpretation. I was just saying that every know and quotes 1 Corinthians 14:34, but not many know the context.

All I did was cite scripture.

My opinion of the assembly and the abuses [going BOTH ways] is not worth the price of a dead dog so I keep it to myself and feel contentment in that.
 
C

ChurchofChristguy

Member
Scarlett O. said:
I didn't give an interpretation. I was just saying that every know and quotes 1 Corinthians 14:34, but not many know the context.

All I did was cite scripture.

My opinion of the assembly and the abuses [going BOTH ways] is not worth the price of a dead dog so I keep it to myself and feel contentment in that.
Click to expand...

well now that's out of the way, I'd love to hear some actual opinions. :Geek
 
A

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Can we really-- really-- keep entirely within scriptural bounds in our church proceedings?

I don't know of a church anywhere that has 2 or 3 [no less, no more] prophets speak 2 or 3 [no less, no more] speak in tongues, nor do I know of any church that requires a woman to wear a head covering if she prays or prophesies. I've heard of a few churches that require women to have a headcovering-- besides her hair [I Corinthians 11:15]-- but not just for praying or prophesying, even to enter the building, while men (and boys) must not enter with any type of headcovering-- not just take it off to pray or prophesy. In fact. most churches still 'frown' upon a man wearing any type of hat or cap, but for women it has become optional.

So.... headcovering on or off is cultural, while scriptural only requires a man not wear a headcovering while praying or prophesying, while requiring a woman to wear such in same situation. Do you know of any churches at all which proceed and require it exactly this way?
 
R

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Scarlett O. said:
I didn't give an interpretation. I was just saying that every know and quotes 1 Corinthians 14:34, but not many know the context.

All I did was cite scripture.

My opinion of the assembly and the abuses [going BOTH ways] is not worth the price of a dead dog so I keep it to myself and feel contentment in that.
Click to expand...

Oh its at least worth a dead dog. Maybe even a cup of coffee
 
Jerome

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Here's the verdict on this:

John Calvin in his Institutes, IV.10.29-30

"the hours set apart for public prayer, sermon, and solemn services; during sermon, quiet and silence, fixed places, singing of hymns, days set apart for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, the prohibition of Paul against women teaching in the Church, and such like....things of this nature are not necessary to salvation, and, for the edification of the Church, should be accommodated to the varying circumstances of each age and nation, it will be proper, as the interest of the Church may require, to change and abrogate the old, as well as to introduce new forms. I confess, indeed, that we are not to innovate rashly or incessantly, or for trivial causes. Charity is the best judge of what tends to hurt or to edify: if we allow her to be guide, all things will be safe.
Things which have been appointed according to this rule, it is the duty of the Christian people to observe with a free conscience indeed, and without superstition, but also with a pious and ready inclination to obey. They are not to hold them in contempt, nor pass them by with careless indifference, far less openly to violate them in pride and contumacy. You will ask, What liberty of conscience will there be in such cautious observances? Nay, this liberty will admirably appear when we shall hold that these are not fixed and perpetual obligations to which we are astricted, but external rudiments for human infirmity, which, though we do not all need, we, however, all use, because we are bound to cherish mutual charity towards each other. This we may recognise in the examples given above. What? Is religion placed in a woman’s bonnet, so that it is unlawful for her to go out with her head uncovered? Is her silence fixed by a decree which cannot be violated without the greatest wickedness? Is there any mystery in bending the knee, or in burying a dead body, which cannot be omitted without a crime? By no means. For should a woman require to make such haste in assisting a neighbour that she has not time to cover her head, she sins not in running out with her head uncovered. And there are some occasions on which it is not less seasonable for her to speak than on others to be silent. Nothing, moreover, forbids him who, from disease, cannot bend his knees, to pray standing. In fine, it is better to bury a dead man quickly, than from want of grave-clothes, or the absence of those who should attend the funeral, to wait till it rot away unburied. Nevertheless, in those matters the custom and institutions of the country, in short, humanity and the rules of modesty itself, declare what is to be done or avoided."
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
ChurchofChristguy said:
This seems to be a popular issue at churches of all flavors these days. Most of the discussion is based not so much about women's roles in the church, but in the church assembly. As an example, our church just announced an expansion of women's roles - allowing women to say a prayer or read a scripture, perhaps help pass out communion trays. There was an outcry from maybe 8-10 families who summarily left over the issue.

This is a difficult issue. I personally don't have a problem with what my church decided, but I can understand people that do. My question is this: If we are going to use Paul's instruction on women in the assembly, don't we have to go "whole hog" on it and not allow them to speak at all? 1 Corinthians 14:34 is explicit: "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak..." Now if we claim "that is just intended for the church at Corinth", or "that was intended only for that culture", then what other parts of the NT do we then decide to disregard on the same basis?

We always have the "out of context" argument, except there is often little agreement over the proper context. And some will say "well Paul was just speaking to that culture..." It seems we all want to pick and choose the things that we feel are applicable today, and summarily discard that which we determine was cultural. Some churches say "yes they can teach kids, but not adults." Others say "they can say a prayer but they can't give a sermon."

Is this something your church is currently dealing with? If so, what are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Teach the children. Teach younger women. Teach other women. Run the nursery. Cook for the eating. Run VBS. Other than that, remain silent. I don't even think they should vote in the church.
 
C

ChurchofChristguy

Member
Reynolds said:
Teach the children. Teach younger women. Teach other women. Run the nursery. Cook for the eating. Run VBS. Other than that, remain silent. I don't even think they should vote in the church.
Click to expand...

Can they sing? Wear jewelry? Wear pants or jeans? Wear makeup? Wear a skirt above her fetlocks?
 
R

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Just because Paul said to remain silent at that time does not make it a prescription for how it should always be. Their circumstances were chaotic in the services. Paul was just trying to have them do all things orderly.
 
Walter

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Reynolds said:
Teach the children. Teach younger women. Teach other women. Run the nursery. Cook for the eating. Run VBS. Other than that, remain silent. I don't even think they should vote in the church.
Click to expand...

Yikes, I am betting you don't have a lot of returning visitors. Yeesh!!!
 
FollowTheWay

FollowTheWay

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe this is the overriding principle:
[Gal 3:28 KJV] 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
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