Would Issuing a Marriage License to Gays ..... be a Sin?

[revmwc]

I had a friend who is a believer who used to work for Miller Brewing. They were the largest employer in this town and the pay was excellent.

Was he responsible for folks getting drunk? Was it a sin for him to participate in producing the beer?

Did he cause them to drink no but did he help supply it for them yes! Did he help them get drunk and thus participate in their sin? God knows that one! God would have convicted him of it and his sould would have been vexed daily if he had, so was it?

 

[McCree79]

Well he can say anything he wants to say. If he tries to take dictatorial powers without justification, I sincerely doubt anyone would obey him.

We do not live in a police state and he cannot make it a police state without a number of things happening before simply giving an order.

You have a very strange view of the state of our government and the willingness of the military and government officials to simply discard the Constitution.

The military has the right to disobey an unlawful order. That's what the Nuremberg War Crimes trials were about.

Again, this has nothing to do with county clerks and marriage licenses.

It was in response to your reply to another member that no one would ever not be allowed to resign. Laws are in place to override resignations if "needed'.

 

[Baptist Believer]

It was in response to your reply to another member that no one would ever not be allowed to resign. Laws are in place to override resignations if "needed'.

Okay, I'll concede your premise:

If President Obama (or a succeeding President) declares a national emergency where he or she takes over all of the resources of the nation, draft all of the citizenry into military service, and have the majority of the armed forces, police agencies, federal, state and local governments support him or her - THEN it MIGHT be possible that a county clerk will not be able to resign and will be forced to issue a marriage license to a same-sex couple, or face penalties.

Do you consider this premise likely? I do not.

If this happens, I will be happy to revisit this line of argument.

 

[Zaac]

The clerk must notarize the paper and that requires the notaries signature and that means as long as that document exist the signature of the notary is there. These Christian people don't want even want their name associated to the license.

Notaries are simply for recognizing something as a legal document. It's not an endorsement.

Are they not gonna notarize a house deed fro property that two same sex people buy together? Are they not gonna notarize liquor licenses? What about the business licenses for the strip clubs or the retail stores that sell pornography? Are they not gonna notarize the renewed alcohol licenses of bars?

If a clerk, as a follower of Jesus Christ, is being consistent with their convictions, then they shouldn't be a clerk because they have to notarize as legal documents a lot of things that don't exactly speak to the things of Christ.

 

[Zaac]

Did he cause them to drink no but did he help supply it for them yes! Did he help them get drunk and thus participate in their sin? God knows that one! God would have convicted him of it and his sould would have been vexed daily if he had, so was it?

I never asked. I know it's not a job I would personally want.

But it's the age old grocery store dilemma. I shop at a grocery store that sells alcohol. Am I helping supply the alcohol by patronizing the store with my dollars?

Or TBN. There are some pastors on there who I really like and I think they do a good job of presenting the Gospel. But there are some that need to be taken off the air and never heard from again.

By supporting TBN, are we responsible for their errant teaching going out over the airwaves?

 

[JonC]

If someone believed that they were sinning against God by issuing licenses, but they decided their jobs were more important, then yes, it would be a sin.

Other things to ask: would it be a sin to sell a home to a gay couple? What about a bed? Would it be a sin to sell a board game to a Mormon couple on “family night”? What about selling food to an Apostolic Pentecostal on his way to a church gathering?

So many questions….

 

[Zaac]

If someone believed that they were sinning against God by issuing licenses, but they decided their jobs were more important, then yes, it would be a sin.

Other things to ask: would it be a sin to sell a home to a gay couple? What about a bed? Would it be a sin to sell a board game to a Mormon couple on “family night”? What about selling food to an Apostolic Pentecostal on his way to a church gathering?

So many questions….

My train of thought was going the same way. There's just a litany of things that this could open the door for.

Like you said, if a clerk can say, because of my religion, I don't want to issue them a marriage license, can a realtor say that because of their religion, they don't want to sell them a house? How about the car salesman? Can grocery stores say we don't want you to shop here as a couple?

The list becomes endless of things we could say gives the impression of us endorsing their sin.

 

[revmwc]

My train of thought was going the same way. There's just a litany of things that this could open the door for.

Like you said, if a clerk can say, because of my religion, I don't want to issue them a marriage license, can a realtor say that because of their religion, they don't want to sell them a house? How about the car salesman? Can grocery stores say we don't want you to shop here as a couple?

The list becomes endless of things we could say gives the impression of us endorsing their sin.

Then it going to go if Christians willing sell them homes and issue them license of do this or that for them then they must let them be church members and get married int the church.

It won't be long!

 

[Zaac]

Then it going to go if Christians willing sell them homes and issue them license of do this or that for them then they must let them be church members and get married int the church.

It won't be long!

I just don't see how any of that is related to them being church members and getting married in the church.

 

[righteousdude2]

I think any "church" that performs such a service should be disfellowshipped and viewed as apostate just as we would any other church that presented false truth.
No Bible believing, Christ following pastor should be putting their name on this marriage license or any other. This is the GOVERNMENT's version of marriage. Let them be the witnesses.
I'll do your wedding ceremony but not your marriage ceremony. I'll join you before GOD. Let the JOP be witness for the government's recording of a "marriage".
Clerks don't sign licenses as the witnesses. They usually just notorize them and issue them to be signed by a pastor or officiant and then file them upon return as official legal documents.
They are just doing paperwork. It's the County, or State that's authorizing/blessing it.
Now I personally don't think a Christ-following pastor has any reason to be signing such a license.
I had a friend who is a believer who used to work for Miller Brewing. They were the largest employer in this town and the pay was excellent.
Was he responsible for folks getting drunk? Was it a sin for him to participate in producing the beer?

Zaac, once again, you have dug yourself into a deep hole, and you need to stop digging, or you will never be able to get yourself out> :laugh:

 

[Salty]

Quote from Zaac: I had a friend who is a believer who used to work for Miller Brewing. They were the largest employer in this town and the pay was excellent.



Depends on what the local church covenant said about the sale of alcohol . If it says church members should not - then he is sinning.

 

[Zaac]

Quote from Zaac: I had a friend who is a believer who used to work for Miller Brewing. They were the largest employer in this town and the pay was excellent.



Depends on what the local church covenant said about the sale of alcohol . If it says church members should not - then he is sinning.

The church doesn't decide what sin is. This sounds like a church that tells the kids that dancing is a sin.

 

[InTheLight]

Quote from Zaac: I had a friend who is a believer who used to work for Miller Brewing. They were the largest employer in this town and the pay was excellent.



Depends on what the local church covenant said about the sale of alcohol . If it says church members should not - then he is sinning.

What about open-toed shoes on women? If the local church says it's a sin, is it?

What is this thinking - - Christian version of Sharia law?

 

[McCree79]

What about open-toed shoes on women? If the local church says it's a sin, is it?

What is this thinking - - Christian version of Sharia law?

Salty is applying 1 Corinthians 8:
"But take care this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. ...if his conscience is weak....and by your knowledge this person is destroyed.... Thus sinning against our brothers......you sin against Christ..."
Sorry for the abridged paraphrase. On this instance it involves food that certain members in the church believe is a sin. Same thing can be applied to clothing, dancing, work for beer manufacturing, etc.....

Working for a beer manufacturer its self is not the sin. If we cause moral harm to someone due to that job, then we have sinned.

*so if a church(congregation) holds views against dancing or working for Miller and you do these anyway. Chances are you sin, not for the acts them self. But the damage you do agaisnt your brothers conscience.

 

[InTheLight]

Salty is applying 1 Corinthians 8:
"But take care this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. ...if his conscience is weak....and by your knowledge this person is destroyed.... Thus sinning against our brothers......you sin against Christ..."
Sorry for the abridged paraphrase. On this instance it involves food that certain members in the church believe is a sin. Same thing can be applied to clothing, dancing, work for beer manufacturing, etc.....

Working for a beer manufacturer its self is not the sin. If we cause moral harm to someone due to that job, then we have sinned.

*so if a church(congregation) holds views against dancing or working for Miller and you do these anyway. Chances are you sin, not for the acts them self. But the damage you do agaisnt your brothers conscience.

Seems to me the person that claims wearing a certain piece of clothing is a sin is the brother with the weaker mind.

 

[McCree79]

Seems to me the person that claims wearing a certain piece of clothing is a sin is the brother with the weaker mind.

Correct. However, if we do harm to their weaker conscience, the sin is on us.

"Wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin agaisnt Christ".

*Paul later goes on to say, "Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat again, lest I make my brother stumble."

 

[Don]

Seems to me the person that claims wearing a certain piece of clothing is a sin is the brother with the weaker mind.

Absolutely agree. But don't forget Romans 15:1 -- We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

 

[Salty]

*so if a church(congregation) holds views against dancing or working for Miller and you do these anyway. Chances are you sin, not for the acts them self. But the damage you do agaisnt your brothers conscience.

NO - you are sinning by breaking a promise of the covenant you agreed to- if said covenant so states those actions.

 

[McCree79]

NO - you are sinning by breaking a promise of the covenant you agreed to- if said covenant so states those actions.

If such covenant existed. I don't many are out their, and I know of no churches with such a covenant. The SBC has many churches that look at(predominant teaching inside church) beer and wine ad sinful. I don't know of any with a covenant (promise) agaisnt beer and wine.

 

[revmwc]

If such covenant existed. I don't many are out their, and I know of no churches with such a covenant. The SBC has many churches that look at(predominant teaching inside church) beer and wine ad sinful. I don't know of any with a covenant (promise) against beer and wine.

Many/most, SBC churches and other Baptist churches have a covenant which hangs on the wall in that covenant it states. "...we also engage...to abstain from the sale of and use of destructive drugs or intoxicating drinks as a beverage;...to be zealous in our efforts to advance the Kingdom of our Saviour."

Link to Lifeway where the wall hanging Church covenant can be purchased:

http://www.lifeway.com/Product/wall-chart-church-covenant-P001149061

It can be seen enlarged by clicking on an icon at the bottom in order to read it.