Zeal for correcting a brother greater than for winning a soul?

[Iconoclast]

The idea that I am "winning" souls for Jesus is a reprehensible thought to me. The entire thought is filled with self-pride and self-righteousness.

By my actions, I, myself, am winning a contest. I am the leader and I will get the prize from the host for being a winner.

It treats God as though He is a game show host who is urging on contestants to win the contest through their own works.

Not one place in scripture expresses such a method of redemption.

We are called to preach reconciliation and share this creed with others:

1 Corinthians 15:3-8

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

God will make those whom He has chosen alive with Christ as He determines.

Evangelism is not a game show contest. It is a commission from God, to His servants, to share what is of first importance and then move on. God will save those who are His sheep, who hear HIS voice and believe. I am not "winning" anyone. I am just doing the simple task of telling people that which is of first importance. It is humbling not prideful.

Therefore, let us throw out this abominable, prideful, talk of "winning" souls. It is a self-righteous, prideful, mindset that lifts up the servant above the Master. May God forbid.

It is Jesus who wins souls.
He has ordained to use us as instruments however.
Prov.11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life.
And he that winneth souls is wise.

 

[AustinC]

It is Jesus who wins souls.
He has ordained to use us as instruments however.
Prov.11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life.
And he that winneth souls is wise.

I'm not convinced you are using Proverbs 11:30 accurately.
However, it truly is God who redeems souls, by His choosing.

Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not convinced you are using Proverbs 11:30 accurately.
However, it truly is God who redeems souls, by His choosing.

Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.

I though that was the "job" of the Holy Spirit?

 

[ad finitum]

2 Corinthians 4
...
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
...
They are blinded, which is why they can not and do not believe. It is not they do not believe so they are then blinded. ...

2 Corinthians 4:4 seems to contradict the conclusion highlighted in boldface which has somehow flipped the logic of the verse. The verse says that Satan blinds those who don't believe. It doesn't say their unbelief was due to Satan blinding them.

It also doesn't say that they don't believe because they were already blind (for some other reason than Satan blinding them).

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Corinthians 4:4 seems to contradict the conclusion highlighted in boldface which has somehow flipped the logic of the verse. The verse says that Satan blinds those who don't believe. It doesn't say their unbelief was due to Satan blinding them.

It also doesn't say that they don't believe because they were already blind (for some other reason than Satan blinding them).

People naturally do not believe, look at what Christ experienced in his teaching, and what He said in John 6:64-66, that you must be granted to come to Him by God, those God did not grant, do not believe, they left off following Him.

And when Christ asks His disciples, whom do men say that I am? Peter responds with You are the Christ, Son of God, and Jesus tells Peter, God had revealed that to Peter. So people do not figure out who Christ is on their own, they need a revelation from God, just like Jesus says here, only those He wills to know Him, know Him, otherwise that knowledge is hidden from you (your blinded).

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

So the evidence points towards people naturally born blinded to spiritual truths, who wont know the Truth unless it is willed by God they know and He must reveal to them who Christ is with the 100% certain result being they then know Him. Luke 10 compares that knowing Him in the same way the Father knows the Son and the Son knows the Father, meaning as in a family relationship.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here is another supporting verse showing they have
futility of mind (nothing they do on their own will enlighten them to the knowledge of God in Christ as they are dead spiritually)
darkened understanding (you cant know the Truth unless God wills it so, the devil darkens the mind)
ignorance is in them (dont know God or Christ, can not obey God's command to believe as they can not know the Truth),
blindness of heart, because of that they are alienated from God and eternal life.

Christ says, I am the Light of the world, and the Light of men, so since they are blind, they can not see the Light. Blind people cant see light.
Without Christ, you will not have the Light of Life inside of you.

Ephesians 4
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;
19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

 

[ad finitum]

People naturally do not believe, look at what Christ experienced in his teaching, and what He said in John 6:64-66, that you must be granted to come to Him by God, those God did not grant, do not believe, they left off following Him.

It does not say that belief is contingent upon God's granting. Does not Jesus marvel at the unbelief in Israel?
Does he not also marvel when he encounters belief where it is not expected?

Why would Jesus marvel about anyone's belief or lack of it if he supposedly "knows" that all belief or unbelief is predicated on God's granting or not granting?

When Jesus marvels at belief/unbelief, did He forget about God's granting and not granting? Should He not have marveled that God did not grant or that God did grant, respectively? Why doesn't He say so?

In John 6, unbelief is always mentioned first before there is mention of God's granting or not.

 

[Scott Downey]

It does not say that belief is contingent upon God's granting. Does not Jesus marvel at the unbelief in Israel?
Does he not also marvel when he encounters belief where it is not expected?

Why would Jesus marvel about anyone's belief or lack of it if he supposedly "knows" that all belief or unbelief is predicated on God's granting or not granting?

When Jesus marvels at belief/unbelief, did He forget about God's granting and not granting? Should He not have marveled that God did not grant or that God did grant, respectively? Why doesn't He say so?

In John 6, unbelief is always mentioned first before there is mention of God's granting or not.

I never said belief was contingent upon God's granting people come to Christ, your adding in that thought, why are you doing that?
The reason they dont come to Christ in belief is God did not grant they come to Christ whatsoever.

I see that your disassembling the scriptures here, some kind of higher criticism?
Scripture is clear in what they are saying, but what is your 'opinion' then? Be plain about it.

 

[ad finitum]

Here is another supporting verse showing they have
futility of mind (nothing they do on their own will enlighten them to the knowledge of God in Christ as they are dead spiritually)
darkened understanding (you cant know the Truth unless God wills it so, the devil darkens the mind)
ignorance is in them (dont know God or Christ, can not obey God's command to believe as they can not know the Truth),
blindness of heart, because of that they are alienated from God and eternal life.

Christ says, I am the Light of the world, and the Light of men, so since they are blind, they can not see the Light. Blind people cant see light.
Without Christ, you will not have the Light of Life inside of you.

Ephesians 4
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;
19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Romans 1 suggests that the truth is very clear to those who choose not to believe. It is clear to them from what has been created by God. They choose to suppress this truth, reject God and exchange the truth about Him for alternatives that they like better. There is no blindness in this. They do it with their eyes open. They know what they are doing.

Once you reject the truth about God, and exchange tht truth for counterfeits (ultimately organized by Satan), that's when blindness descends.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 1 suggests that the truth is very clear to those who choose not to believe. It is clear to them from what has been created by God. They choose to suppress this truth, reject God and exchange the truth about Him for alternatives that they like better. There is no blindness in this. They do it with their eyes open. They know what they are doing.

Once you reject the truth about God, and exchange tht truth for counterfeits (ultimately organized by Satan), that's when blindness descends.

Nope your misreading Romans 1 simply to suit your ideas about what knowing God means in Romans 1.

what your saying is people are born neutral and have the ability to choose to do good or bad as they know God.
But the unsaved do not know God, that is what Christ says in Luke 10, you believe what you want though, and i will believe what Christ taught.

What your misunderstanding about 'knowing God' is this means they knew God created the universe, the world, not that they knew God as in a relationship and reject Him.

Proof of that is in the CONTEXT, Paul is speaking about the CREATION,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God (made all these things, look back at v20, only darkened fools would not acknowledge God as their Creator), they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

[Scott Downey]

Strange thought to say a man is only blinded to Christ after the man rejects Christ with eyes wide open in their natural born ability all men possess to come to Christ in belief and be saved.
God never needs to get involved, people are free to make a freewill choice.
Pelagianism is a 'heresy' that teaches such a thing. Look it up.

 

[Scott Downey]

Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism: What are they? How do they differ?
What Is Pelagianism and Why Is It Condemned as Heresy?

 

[Scott Downey]

And then this here, God's testimony of mans heart, it is evil from his youth. Meaning as a young child, they have an evil imagination. (referring to how they view God, creation etc... as they show their corruption in their understanding at a very young age. Like when they start thinking perhaps.

Because their foolish hearts are darkened even in their youth as young children, they are natural allies of the devil.
As they age, they get more hardened and more evil, unless God changes their heart by making them born again. Time does not make things better for them.

Genesis 8
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;

for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

 

[Tsalagi]

Strange thought to say a man is only blinded to Christ after the man rejects Christ with eyes wide open in their natural born ability all men possess to come to Christ in belief and be saved.
God never needs to get involved, people are free to make a freewill choice.
Pelagianism is a 'heresy' that teaches such a thing. Look it up.

This is like saying a criminal has brown eyes, so brown eyes are criminal. Believing that an unregenerate man can choose to accept God's offer of salvation by grace does not make one a Pelagian, semi- or otherwise. Romans 7:14-23 offers a better line of inquiry into that subject than attempting to tar one's opponent with this kind of broad guilt-by-association brush. Probably a discussion for another thread; my point in this one is that the caricature above is typical of the very thing the OP is talking about.

 

[AustinC]

This is like saying a criminal has brown eyes, so brown eyes are criminal. Believing that an unregenerate man can choose to accept God's offer of salvation by grace does not make one a Pelagian. Romans 7:14-23 offers a better line of inquiry into that subject than attempting to tar one's opponent with this kind of broad guilt-by-association brush. Probably a discussion for another thread; my point in this one is that the caricature above is typical of the very thing the OP is talking about.

It's probably more equivalent to saying he's Roman Catholic lite.

 

[Tsalagi]

It's probably more equivalent to saying he's Roman Catholic lite.

So you're doing the same thing. The OP is right on target.

 

[AustinC]

So you're doing the same thing. The OP is right on target.

You don't recognize your theology as semi-pelagian?

 

[Iconoclast]

I though that was the "job" of the Holy Spirit?

What is the job of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm not convinced you are using Proverbs 11:30 accurately.
However, it truly is God who redeems souls, by His choosing.

Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.

Hello Austin
I am thinking of mt.28:18-20

 

[Tsalagi]

You don't recognize your theology as semi-pelagian?

No, and this isn't a thread for that discussion.