Featured Human State at birth?

I will address your point in this post. For I agree what you posted about death here. And that is not only the state of man but also of everything else.

Salvation is giving life to what is dead. Man will receive salvation from God by grace through the faith. If he is given life because he believes something then it would no longer be by grace.

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For man to receive any promise made by God the Christ would have to receive it first. Abraham died not having received the promises because the promises come through the seed of Abraham the Christ. Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus became the author of eternal salvation by being given the promise of eternal life by the resurrection from the dead by his Father God.

Christ died for us. By your definition of death did Christ die for us or not?

a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life

If God the Father had not raised him from the dead would he still be dead today.

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.

If Jesus isn't raised there will be no life given to anyone.

 

Everyone is conceived In Adam.....God adopts all those elected, at whatever age he wants to.

 

Amy you used to know the answer to this...recent reformed amnesia? :laugh:

We are born in the image of God affected by the curse. Ecc. 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

 

Actually, I only thought I knew.

Adam was created in the image of God, which we still retain somewhat, but all men after Adam are in the image of Adam (fallen).

In what way do you think we have been "affected" by the fall?


You didn't answer my question. If we're not born in Christ or in Adam, what do you call the state we are born in?

 

You change sides more than my son changes his underwear...how can you be so sure?

Genesis 9:6 deals with much more than just Adam "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

Sin nature, suffering, death, eventual separation from God.

In neither of the above as the passage in Ecc.7 and Genesis 9 allude to. Nobody is guilty of anything until committing the act of guilt. Like Skan likes to say, it is begging the question by stating it must be one or the other.

 

People are like apples in a barrel. Because some are spoiled they in turn spoil the rest. I remember being tempted when I was very young. I was hesitent but I desired to be accepted by my peers. As I grew older it was still the same until I sinned as though sin was part of me. Once you've committed sin it's always easier the next time. You are drawn to it more and more. Sin is the main drug of choice for everyone. Acceptance is a desire we all have.
MB

 

Amy, the scriptures well after Adam continued to say we are still made in the image of God. Webdog showed you Gen. 9:6.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

This was spoken by James after Jesus rose from the dead, men are still made in the similitude or likeness of God.

1 Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

This was spoken in NT times and says man is the image and glory of God.

You are buying their baloney, hook, line, and sinker.

 

One absurd argument after another is being made by those who deny that the many were condemned through the transgression of Adam.

Jesus is the perfect image of God, whereas we are flawed, therefore simply a likeness of God. It is a strawman argument to say the Fall means we are no longer made in the image of God.

When we are conceived are we "in Christ" or outside of Christ? If outside of Christ, we can label this condition as being in Adam. Also since we are made alive together with Christ, we can conclude we are not alive when not together with Christ. QED

 

I did not say that we are no longer in the image of God. I said that that image has been corrupted. God did not form me out of the dirt and call me good. I come from Adam. I was born with the same corruptness as Adam had after his fall. It is inherited.

Romans 5:18
New King James Version (NKJV)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

 

When we are conceived, we are upright.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

When we mature enough to understand good from evil and willfully sin, we spiritually die.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This verse proves children do not at first know between good and evil. This is supported by Deut 1:39.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Little children have no knowledge between good and evil and therefore cannot be guilty of committing sin. When a person matures and understands between good and evil and sins, then he dies.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

When was Paul ever without the law? The law was written 1500 years before Paul was born. The only possible answer is that Paul is speaking of when he was a child and had no knowledge between good and evil. Paul didn't say he thought he was alive as some falsely say, Paul directly said he was alive. This is not possible if Original Sin is true. But if OS is false and men are born upright as Ecc 7:29 directly says, then a man can spiritually die when he learns the law and sins.

And when he repents and "returns" to God as 1 Pet 2:25 says, he is born again, he is "alive again" as Jesus said in Luke 15.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

If Original Sin is true, then no man could be "alive again" as Jesus said. If Original Sin is true, then Paul could have never been "alive" as he says he was. If Original Sin is true, then no man could be "returned" to God as 1 Pet 2:25 says.

You can act like you do not understand this all you want Van, a little child could easily understand this. The scriptures do not say we are born dead in sin, you cannot show it anywhere in scripture, it is not there.

"In Adam" is used only once in all of scripture and is speaking of the physical resurrection of our bodies. This verse does not say we are dead in Adam, it says in Adam all die. This is the physical corruption we inherited from Adam, not spiritual. All men physically die.

You cannot show any scripture that says we are born dead in sin, I challenge you to show it. But I have showed scripture that says we are made upright, and that we were alive before we spiritually died.

So put up, or shut up.

 

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Amy, "even so" connects the 2, there is no way around that fact. If all humans are in the one, "even so" they must necessarily be in the other. It also says resulting in condemnation, not formed in condemnation.,,,,,,,,

 

Exactly. If judgment came upon all men unconditionally, then the free gift would also come upon all men unconditionally and all men would be saved. It is this interpretation that is one of the favorite proof-texts of universalists.

However, if judgment is conditional, conditioned upon our personal sinning as Adam sinned, then the free gift is also conditioned upon us believeing as Jesus did. In this view, all who sinned would come under judgment, but only those that believe would receive the free gift. This is the correct interpretation.

Van and others claim the judgment is unconditional, but the free gift is conditional. This is completely inconsistent with what the verse is saying. You rightly pointed out the words "even so" which would mean the same conditions (or lack of conditions) would apply to both sides of the verse.

 

Let us pretend that the Spirit God had not begotten in the seed of the woman a man child. There would be no death payment for sin. There would be no resurrected life.


What would be the state of every living soul who has been born of the flesh? What would be the prognosis for one who was born this morning?


2/7 And Jehovah God formed the man -- dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils breath of life, and the man became a living creature.


The dirt that had life from God breathed into it, that living soul.

That is what he was. He did not fall from anything nor did he lose his image or anything else. He did exactly what his creator knew he would do.

2/15 God put him into the Garden without a help meet.

2/17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

The Lamb of God a man begotten of God and born of a wo-man the one who would be taken from that first living soul Adam in the eyes of God was already slain. (death)

What was God doing?

What good would a dead Lamb do for all those souls who died when the breath of life returned to God who gave it and they returned to the dust from whence they came.

If someone pleasing to God doesn't come along and is born again from the dead. There ain't, excuse me, there isn't going to be any life for anyone.

 

This is completely bogus. Everyone is in Adam...by physical birth..

It takes spiritual birth to be adopted as In Christ.The world is condemned already.

 

Correctomundo! That is why we MUST die physically. We die spiritually when God imputes/accounts sin unto us.

Agreed.....:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Adam's fall brought death, but Christ brings life.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Christ Died for all mankind, that takes away the limited atonement doctrine of Calvanism, and it says all are dead, well the unbeliever isn't dead physically so that means all are dead spiritually. The debate here is when does one die spiritually or are we born spiritually dead. If the first sin brings spiritual death that would be the first temper tamtrum a baby throws and that would be about a minute or two after birth when they are hungry and scream at the top of their lungs for milk, if they don't get it right away they keep crying until they get their way. Scripture is clear we are in tresspasses and sins everyone wwithout Christ is in a state of sepeeration from God and that is Spiritual death.

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Christ died for all and God's word says that all should not live unto themselves but unto God but we know that not all do. Christ Atonement covered all sin, it has become an issue of calling upon Him for salvation, the gift is there. People have to accept the gift for it to be effectual in their lives.


19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God was reconcilling all mankind to Himself in Christ. He does not imput mans sins unto them, so to say that sin brings the lost state of being Spiritually dead makes this scripture null and void. For to receive Christ is to be reconciled to God the Father, His atonement was unconditional and now mankind must be saved because of being Spiritually living in Tresspasses and sins.

 

Then "even so" everyone is in Christ. Welcome to universalism.

 

Not everyone is in Christ.

 

Well, based on the text if everyone is in Adam you cannot get around the fact they are connected.

 

We are close, but I believe a person has to be a little older than an infant or even a very small child. Jesus picked up a small child and placed him in the middle of the disciples and said we must be converted and become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. This to me sounds like a child that could be 4 or 5 years old. I personally believe a person must be old enough to understand right from wrong before they are held accountable.

Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This child was old enough to respond and come to Jesus when he called, and small enough to be picked up and placed in the midst of the disciples, so I get the impression this child was between 3-5 years old.

But note Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as "little children" to enter the kingdom of heaven. I think it would be absurd to believe Jesus was saying we should become wicked little sinners. Therefore I believe the scriptures show small children are not guilty of sin.