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Featured Covenant Theology

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Van, Aug 25, 2012.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hey Thomas15, we get it, you do not think the Reformed version of Covenant Theology is valid or has actual support in scripture. Fine, me too. But "taint so" posts without acknowledging and addressing what others see in scripture, i.e. a plan of redemption formulated before creation, does not cut the mustard. We cannot abandon truth to win arguments, otherwise we become like the guy that said scripture was silent on a plan of redemption before creation.
     
  2. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    And Dispensationalism is the solution?
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Thomas,

    before the printing press...not many people had access to scripture to do the kind of study that puts it together. Thats why it traces mostly back to that time.....
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Lets throw this against the wall and see what sticks:

    1) Plan of Redemption formulated before creation or Covenant of Redemption formulated before creation.

    2) Dispensation of Innocence or how God dealt with Adam and Eve before the Fall versus Covenant of Works.

    3) Dispensation of Conscience or how God dealt with mankind from the Fall to Abraham versus Covenant of Grace part "A".

    4) Dispensation of the Promise or how God is dealing with Mankind from Abraham to the Return of Christ versus Covenant of Grace part "B."
    4a) Abraham to Moses - Patriarchal Rule
    4b) Moses to Christ - Mosaic Law
    4c) Christ to Christ - Dispensation of Grace​

    5) Millennial Kingdom on Earth versus Covenant of Grace part "C."

    6) Eternal Kingdom of the New Heaven and New Earth
     
  5. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    We are not discussing dispensationalism, we are discussing covenant theology. The question is are the reformed covenants, especally the covenant of redemption biblically based?

    I say that they are not. I happen to be a dispensationalist because I believe that that school is the most biblical of the various offerings. But it isn't an either/or (covenant/dispensationalist) situation.
     
  6. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Not to sound unkind, but so what? How does this help your cause and hurt mine?
     
  7. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Van, if you stop at this then you win the prize. You (anyone that is) cannot state as fact what you cannot prove. You cannot prove from the Bible that a covenant of redemption was cut between Jehovah and any other person(s) because the Bible is silent on the matter. However much we might believe such an arrangement exits, we cannot say that it does. The reformed are simply wrong for insisting that the covenant exits because they have no proof.

    Sorry if that offends but that is the way it is.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Strawman arguments are logical fallacies, offered up because the position cannot be defended with truth. Thomas15, you simply deny the plan of redemption exists in scripture, then offer nothing to support your fiction. So you charge me with something other than insisting that God sent the Son as His Lamb according to His plan of redemption.



    Sorry if that offends but truth matters.
     
  9. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Van,

    That God, who is all knowing and has a divine prespective on history, certainly had/has a plan of salvation. The problem is, and you refuse to see this, is that having a plan is not the same as cutting a covenant of redemption between Jehovah and some other party.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Wait a minute, did you finally acknowledge God had a plan of redemption before creation that included the Word as the Lamb of God?
    We are on page 9 and I still have not seen anything to demonstrate your ability to admit to this scriptural truth.

    Next, the agreement would be between God the Father, who sent the Son, and God the Son who became flesh to die for the whole world which means He accepted His role in Yahweh's plan of redemption. If you do not want to all this a "Covenant" fine, how about an agreement?
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    not saying that it is the ONLY way to view Gods dealings with man, but we are asking if some of Covenant theology is based upon inference and assumptions, not upon the explicit meaning of the texts themselves?
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the problem is that we do NOT see the concept of election as you do, as we see it on the dual basis of God sovereignty and him choosing on an individual basis those to receive Christ and be saved!

    So jesus ALWAYS was to be the Lamb of God, so being eternally 'chosen" , hard to see it as a time when he was not to be the messiah!

    that is the problem with this type of OP, as you are thinking in a lineal time frame, while ALL of this was ALWAYS the Sovereign Will and plan of God!
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world as the Lamb of God. Thus the redeeming work of the Lamb was planned for before the Fall. Anyone who says Christ is not the Chosen One simply nullifies scripture for the sake of man-made doctrine.
     
  14. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    What does the Bible call it? A covenant? An agreement? We don't know what it is because the Bible doesn't say.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was the "always chosen" One of the Godhead who would die for the sins of his peoples!
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Yeshua1, yes I know you think you can add to the bible and just make stuff up. You do it in many of your posts. However, for you to rewrite the bible by redefining the meaning of words puts you under the the threat of Revelation 22:19. A person becomes chosen when they go from being unchosen to being chosen. Otherwise the word has no meaning. You are taking away words from scripture found in Revelation.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Thomas15, I think you realize God formulated a plan of Redemption that included actions by the Father, by the Son and by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said not my will but yours, indicating Jesus was willing to do what the Father commanded. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...

    Why deny a basic truth of scripture? Where Reformed Theology goes off the rails is in how they understand the plan, rather than being mistaken there was a plan. This is not rocket science.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Words to redefine, chosen means never chosen, decree means never decreed, ordained means never ordained. After means before but before cannot mean after. Regenerated means born again, but born again cannot mean regenerated. On and on it goes, Calvinism's wholesale attack on word meanings, and Yeshua1 leads the charge.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    you have to see the Fall correctly, and the plan/purposes of God correctly, than salvation can be seen in its proper light!
     
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