Featured Do Calvinists believe man has free will after salvation?

Ben, Ben, Ben. Haven't I explained that your wordiness is handicapping you? You use many words with a confusion of thought. There is a dense undergrowth that needs to be cleared away. If you don't have the ability to communicate in a more succinct manner, you are doomed to fail.

Using 115 words in a "sentence" is a recipe for disaster. What further complicates matters is your poor grammar.

Then, on top of those weaknesses, is your ineffective man-centered theology.

What preachers (if any) do you listen to on sermonaudio.com? Or is your theology entirely self-derived?

Well, I'll end this on a positive note. That verse, and ones like it, are a huge comfort to me --especially when many on the BB describe my God in such perverse ways. But the Lord is indeed just and right in all that he does. No one can tell him what he can or should do. He is completely free and sovereign. It is so strange that when people loudly declare the freeness of their wills --they aren't inclined to acknowledge that quality of The Potter."Who are you O man?" is another favorite of mine.

 

To deny predestination, is to deny the greatest act of pure mercy ever demonstrated. It would also deny the scriptures that prove it. Notice...

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Ephesians 1:11-12 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."


Some say that God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, THAT would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin.Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect.

 

Brother Benjamin,

It took me quite some time to compose my post below to you last night in an attempt to answer your questions. Please take some time to quote from this post the points and rebuttal.
Also, did God predestinate that Christ be crucified, if so, was this evil of Him? Finally, I know you stated my premise is wrong that God's will is the first cause of all causes. I am a simple man and perhaps didn't see or understand your reply to my original question of if God is not the first cause of all causes who is? Can you answer that in a few sentences? Do you believe everything has a cause (of course with the exception of God) or do you maintain there are effects with no causes? Thank you and enjoy your holiday.

 

I'm not sure how that works for your theology. How could all of God's plan come together without sinful men committing sin? Let's take just one example of thousands; The Son of God must be sacrificed, put to death, for the sins of the people. How does this happen with God detached from orchestrating the events, which involve sin?

 

Brother Rippon,

He avoids answers to my questions too. I asked if God's will is the first cause of all causes, if not, who is? He then tells me this premise is false, but doesn't offer any alternative of who is the first cause of all causes or if he believes there are effects with no causes. Some creature has to be the first cause as we know every effect has a cause (with the exception of God who is eternal). He also never replied to my long post # 57 in which I attempted to answer his questions. It is frustrating to debate someone like that.

 

Brother Earth,

Hello. God predestinates (or in other words predetermines) everything, but is not the direct cause of sin. God can predetermine something without working evil in a creature's heart. The evil is already there. Secondary causes create sin (i.e. the devil and man's totally depraved flesh). Who is responsible for any good that is carried out by you, yourself or God in you? Also, did God predestinate the crucifixion of Christ, and if so, did that make Him the author of sin in so doing?

Hope you enjoy the fourth in the great country!

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

OK then ....in scripture, show me where it sites that God predestines everything we do and say....absolutely everything.

 

Brother Earth,

I bought up Christ's crucifixion to show how God can predestinate a wicked event, but not be the author of sin since you asserted if he predestinated all things he would be the author of sin.

Here is a scripture that shows God predestinates all things,

"him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11)

How can God work something after his will and it not be predestinated? Can you give me an example?

Also,
"16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
7 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Colossians 1:16-17)

This ICB version puts Colossians 1:7 this way, "17 Christ was there before anything was made. And all things continue because of him"

What things do you believe God did not predestinate?

 

Bottom line, I did not say knowledge of the future with certainty causes predestination, I said Calvinism teaches knowledge of the future with 100% certainty presumes that future was predestined by something.

No amount of jabberwocky will change reality.

No amount of appealing to "experts who have studied" will alter reality.

No appeal to mystery.

Nothing.

Calvinism teaches exhaustive determinism, every detail of the future is predestined, because God's perfect knowledge of the future presupposes it.

Doctrines that create paradoxes that are peddled on the basis of "it is a mystery but with God all things are possible" are suspect.

There are only two solutions actually offered by advocates of the failed doctrines, either "its a mystery" or "time travel" where when we experience the future, it is unfixed and alternate outcomes are possible, but God knows what happened because He looks at it "from outside time." In a word, those so-called solutions are twaddle.

 

Now I see where the confusion is here Joe..... we are talking past one another. When you looked at the "predestination " scriptures I posted did you notice something specifically mentioned in the verses? Predestination is always about *people* not *events*. Notice the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren." This is a huge point and please do not miss it. God did not predestinate all things that transpire but He predestinated all whom He foreknew. Some out there say that God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Again that would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin. Now, there are some things God “decreed” to happen when they did (you mentioned that with your Christs death and ressurection example) but that is a completely different subject. PREDESTINATION (the doctrine of) however is only concerned with the destiny of the elect.

 

Brother Steve,

I agree the word "predestination" is used only in reference to people, not events, but the Bible clearly sets forth the doctrine of the predestination of all things by using words that have the same meaning such as "appointed', "ordained", "decreed". The Bible does not use the word "trinity" in reference to God, but it also is clearly taught in scripture. The absolute predestination of all things is evident in Ephesians 1:11, "...him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" If everything works after God's own will, it is thus predetermined by His will before it actually happens, is it not?

The Bible even goes so far as to tell us the disobedience of the nonelect was "appointed" by God when Peter declares, " being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed"(1 Peter 2:8). The wicked were "ordained" to destruction, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation" (Jude 1:4). God also tells us, "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4)

Other verses make his predestination of all things evident. "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps." (Proverbs 16:9) and "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23)

In the book of Psalms it says: “The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. (37:23)” Notice the italicized word “good”. That word was added by the translators, thus the verse actually says, “The steps of man are ordered by the Lord.” The Hebrew word in this verse for “are ordered” is defined as“ established” according Strong's Hebrew Concordance http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3559.htm

Finally, consider this verse, "24 Man's goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Proverbs 20:24)

The Lord's prayer tells us, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10). Do you think Jesus's prayer was in vain and didn't come true, or is His will done on earth?

Was God the author of sin because he predestinated the wicked acts of evil men to crucify his son to bring redemption for His elect? Also, all evil that was predestinated is carried out by secondary causes, the devil and/or man's totally depraved flesh, thus God is not authoring the sin. The devil is no more than God's pawn as seen by how God controlled him in Job and he uses Satan's wicked acts to accomplish God's Holy purposes. Take for example Joseph being betrayed by his brothers, "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Genesis 50:20) Notice in Job though it was the devil how did everything to Job, Job said that God did it, "21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). Did Job tell the truth when he said the Lord did this? If so, then you may see how God uses Satan and wicked men in accomplishing His purposes. Job said that God did it, and the record of the next verse says that, "22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly" (Job 1:22).

Also, any good that a child of God does is only because of God "working in us". Call it a robot if you want, but the scripture is clear, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). It is God's will according to this verse, not the will of our flesh when a child of God does anything good.

Was it God's will that sin come into the earth? Also, what events do you believe God didn't predestinate?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

OK then I have a question; did God “wrought” all of David’s works when he had the affair with Bathsheba and subsequently arranged for her husband’s death?

 

Brother, it also took me quite some time to bring you back to your original question (argument) and to demonstrate that I in fact did answer it, both in detail AND in short sentences. Frankly, I am a bit perplexed that while you talk about how a debate should go forward you would continue to ignore that I have taken your leading argument back to its roots and that you will use this as a point of contention in the debate rather than acknowledging the subject matter which directly deals with your reasoning.

I'm beginning to believe you must simply not be getting the answer you prefer and are avoiding going into depth about the argument you have started with.


I am not interested in spending the time to chase after new rabbit trails of the scriptural food fight proof-texting sort which I merely see not as ethical debate protocol but as smokescreen tactics when you can't seem to/or refuse follow the root argument which you present and I fully addressed already.

As per the bulk of your proof-texting (which interpretations are seemingly designed to support your idea that God can cause evil yet not be responsible for it) I answered that in general, I referred to it as the "post below" but, again, am not interested in spending the time chasing down every proof-texting rabbit trail you can come up with while you fail to acknowledge the root argument about Deterministic doctrines and the logical consequences of such doctrines leading to God being the author of sin. Seriously, what will prove to me with your proof-texting? - That God is the first cause of evil but it not responsible for it??? It may not the way you like or are used to "debating" BUT all these issues have been addressed and I have no intention of being baited to go down new rabbit trails before the acknowledgment of my counter argument which shows your opening premises to fall short of truth.

Talk about being frustrated with Rippon (The King of avoiding issues through focus on rhetoric and Ad Hominem)?! You might want to note how much detail I went into to address your opening argument:

 

What theology are you referring to? Then after you answer that question, please define for me your consept of predestination.

 

BTW, Brother, if you did not understand my reference about you will prove to me by your proof-texting I do believe Wesley sums this issue of God being responsible for the cause of evil quite well:

You have a good holiday also. Many blessings.

 

This should include the events and circumstances that the "people" encounter, such as the cross of Christ.

The Greek term transliterated as proorizo and translated usually as predestined appears 7 times in six verses in the New Testament.

In Acts 4:28 it is used to describe that the suffering of Christ was predestined as part of God’s foretold plan of redemption. So the term applies to a feature of God’s predetermined plan.

In Romans 8:29 all those in Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. So, again, the term applies to a feature of God’s predetermined plan applicable to anyone in Christ, not to those not yet in Christ.

In Romans 8:30 the term simply repeats the usage of Romans 8:29, those predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are called to a Holy calling.

In 1 Corinthians 2:7 the term is again applied to Christ as the predestined Lord of Glory.

In Ephesians 1:5 the term is applied to all those in Christ as predestined to be adopted as sons, raised in glorified bodies.

In Ephesians 1:11 the term is applied to those in Christ as being predestined to an inheritance, everlasting life with God, which is the fulfillment of God’s purpose in creation and predestined plan from all eternity.

In summary, the term is only applied to features of God’s predetermined plan affecting Christ or all those, whoever they may be, in Christ. It is never used to describe either the unconditional selection of specific foreseen individuals nor the conditional selection of specific foreseen individuals with foreseen faith, which are the erroneous views of the Calvinists and the Arminians.

 

I didn't read everything IJ said about you and feel no need to. That is between you and him. What I said about you is based on your responses to me.

Oh, I don't deny that I am not Protestant. I am very happy not to be Protestant or Catholic. That puts me out of the line of persecutors and murderers, and admirers and defenders of them.

 

Wooooooooo ...ha ha! Thats telling him :thumbs:

Keep that stuff "pure " my friend.