Do Calvinists believe man has free will after salvation?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

False.
No, I won't.
Under no conditions whatsoever, would I surrender my wallet,
but, I spent years as an anti-terrorism security chief....
So, I give absolutely NOTHING.

I would watch you and your whole family be murdered in cold blood, but, I'd give a criminal nothing.

Absolutely nothing.


I have 0.0% desire to live.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

I care less than nothing for my own earthly existence.
I know where I'm going when I die.

Do you?

I give criminals absolutely nothing.

They are afraid of death.....
I'm not.
Are you?

What matters for my kids is their eternity, not some stupid limited earthly existence which is paltry, pale, temporary and full of pain in a sin-sick world. Is this something I care that they experience??


In the World of the Scriptures....
What matters is Eternity...

Not the sin-sick world you think I want my kids to live in.

I don't know what horrors you wish you children to experience, but, it's all the same to me, if my children escape this sin-sick world and be reunited with their redeemer, the first-fruits of the resurrection and belay their chances of dealing with violence and horror and criminality.

You see.....

I actually BELIEVE the Bible......

So, I'm not addicted to planet Earth.

If you are...
Well, that's you, but you don't speak for myself or my children.

My greatest and most passionate will for my children......

is that they DIE.....

You may love this sin-sick world and desire your children to suffer in torment with it, but, I don't.

I know a redeemer who promises them eternity in perfect fellowship with our father....

You don't seem to understand that.

Put that in your Calvinist pipe and smoke it.

They are crap hypotheticals which are faithless and don't apply to me.

I KNOW who my redeemer is, and my GREATEST hope is that my children meet him....
I'm not a Calvinist who shares your false ideas about Original Sin.... (a false doctrine)....but, I do read the Bible....and I have no interest in my children inhabiting the sin-sick world you seem to love and want your children to inhabit.

Planet Terra-firma can go to gehenna....my friend......it will anyway.

If that's not something Calvinists like yourself are capable of understanding, than, I'd like to introduce to you the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Neither the Apostle Paul nor myself are or were addicted to this planet...
It's gonna burn in fire and ash.....

Even if there WERE no God, this planet and it's inhabitants are doomed.
The entire physical Universe will either burn out and suffer a slow heat-death and come to naught, or, there is a redeemer who cares about us and died on the cross to give us eternal life.

My concerns are for my children's (I have 5 of them) ETERNAL life.

How many do you have?
Are you afraid of death on this Earth?.....you appear to be.
I'm not.

My Theology appears to be far more freeing than yours.
I don't care if all five of my children die tomorrow, in fact, I'd prefer it....

I love them, but, I KNOW where they are going.
This sin-sick planet can rot...........
I love my children enough not to want them here.

Actually, Calvinist in the past would celebrate the death of a person they knew who was going to meet the Lord....anyway thats my way of handeling death. It has no sting for me.

 

[Rippon]

“As to your second premise, which you should probably understand is already doomed to come to a false conclusion considering your first premise, the first cause of evil was man with the help of Satan, which was made possible through the divine design of God’s creatures to have the free will/human volition to disobey God – by which each and every one will “genuinely be held responsible” for being the “cause” of except for the grace of our Loving Creator who provided the Way of salvation for ALL who love and believe the truth with that precious gift of a mind to all mankind to have the ability to reason through human volition/free will."

Ben, Ben, Ben. Haven't I explained that your wordiness is handicapping you? You use many words with a confusion of thought. There is a dense undergrowth that needs to be cleared away. If you don't have the ability to communicate in a more succinct manner, you are doomed to fail.

Using 115 words in a "sentence" is a recipe for disaster. What further complicates matters is your poor grammar.

Then, on top of those weaknesses, is your ineffective man-centered theology.

What preachers (if any) do you listen to on sermonaudio.com? Or is your theology entirely self-derived?

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Well, I'll end this on a positive note. That verse, and ones like it, are a huge comfort to me --especially when many on the BB describe my God in such perverse ways. But the Lord is indeed just and right in all that he does. No one can tell him what he can or should do. He is completely free and sovereign. It is so strange that when people loudly declare the freeness of their wills --they aren't inclined to acknowledge that quality of The Potter."Who are you O man?" is another favorite of mine.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To deny predestination, is to deny the greatest act of pure mercy ever demonstrated. It would also deny the scriptures that prove it. Notice...

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Ephesians 1:11-12 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."


Some say that God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, THAT would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin.Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect.

 

[steaver]

I actually BELIEVE the Bible......

It appears you believe it selectively. The Apostle Paul's desire was to be with the Lord, but he also wanted to stay and do the work of the Lord.

Paul AVOIDED death. Read Acts 23, and you will see how Paul, when having the chance to be killed, escaped it.

If your desire is to die, then your heart is not on Jesus Christ. You were saved for a purpose in the kingdom of God.

I personally think you are just blowing hot air. If you truly wanted to die and wanted your children to die, you would buy yourself a plane ticket and haul yourself and your kids over to Iraq and take a walk out through the country side of ISIS. They would certainly oblige your desires.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Benjamin,

It took me quite some time to compose my post below to you last night in an attempt to answer your questions. Please take some time to quote from this post the points and rebuttal.
Also, did God predestinate that Christ be crucified, if so, was this evil of Him? Finally, I know you stated my premise is wrong that God's will is the first cause of all causes. I am a simple man and perhaps didn't see or understand your reply to my original question of if God is not the first cause of all causes who is? Can you answer that in a few sentences? Do you believe everything has a cause (of course with the exception of God) or do you maintain there are effects with no causes? Thank you and enjoy your holiday.

Brother Benjamin,

God's will is the first cause of all causes. This is scriptural and also logical. This is because God is the only thing that does not have a cause as He alone is eternal and created all things. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)
Ephesians 1:11 tells us, "him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:", therefore His will is the first cause of all causes.

Sin is carried out as a result of secondary causes. The secondary causes of sin are two different created creatures. # 1 is Satan, as it is written, "...the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" (Ephesians 2:2). The other secondary cause of sin is man's evil flesh, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Romans 7:18). Any good that is carried out by a regenerated child of God per scripture is a result solely of God working directly through his children by God's will, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13)

God willing that sin come into existence does not make God the author of sin. Please permit me to explain. An act alone does not constitute sin, but the righteousness or unrighteousness of an act is determined by the motive prompting the act. If a physician causes his fellowman great pain and suffering and even death by the amputation of a limb in an effort to do him good, no one would condemn that physician of wrong doing; but if he causes him pain or suffering or death by amputating a limb in malice and with an intention of doing him harm, that physician is guilty of wrong. God has a holy and sinless motive in all that He does, in all that He causes to be done and in all that He allows to be done, and intends that each thing done shall redound to the praise of that holy and exalted purpose, and so it matters not how sinful and vile the act may be when performed by man with a corrupt motive, God’s motive and purpose in the act being most holy He is not and can not be chargeable with sin; and yet the very same act which He has appointed to issue in His praise and redound to His glory is a vile transgression on the part of the one who performed it, as his design was evil.

To illustrate, when God sent the king of Assyria against Israel with the charge God declares “I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets.” (Isaiah 10:6), God continues, “But this is not what he (the king of Assyria) intends,
this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations”. (Isaiah 10:7) The wickedness was not put in the heart of the king by God’s decree, but it was already there. But God then states, “Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed His whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks. For he saith, by the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom...” (Isaiah 10:12-13) Read the entire 10th chapter of Isaiah. This wicked king did the very thing God determined, but he was not moved in the least to do it by God’s decree; he was entirely ignorant of that, but was actuated by an evil motive to cut off and destroy, thus God punished him for this! Thus we see that an act does not determine if something is sin, but the motive prompting the act, thus God can will that sin exist, but not be the author of sin.

God directly predetermined to do all acts of good on this earth and he predetermined that others would do all the acts of evil on this earth, but he has uses these evil acts to produce a greater good- Take for example, the crucifixion of Christ, the most evil act of mankind ever-was of God's predetermined plan according to scripture. "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22) Also, "26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:26-28) and finally, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). He used these acts to bruise his Son, make him Sin, thus redeeming his people so they can live with and in him for all of eternity. This is the greatest act of love this world has or ever will see. Yet we also see those who did these acts are declared to be done by "wicked hands", therefore they are not excused by God in their actions even though it was used to fulfill God's purpose (these wicked men acted from their evil motives and were ignorant of God's Holy purposes He had in the whole matter).

Thus, through the crucifixion we see how God can predestinate the most evil act history has ever see, but at the same time have it about to His glory by accomplishing mercy, redemption, forgiveness, grace, justification, etc. Therefore, if He can do this with the most wicked act man has ever known, He can, and certainly does so for all lessor acts of evil, yet cannot be charged with being the "author of sin" as His motives behind his predestination/predetermination of events are always holy and just. I hope this long rambling reply has answered your questions and that you will now answer my question of, "Is God's will the first cause of all causes, if not, what is?"

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[steaver]

Some say that God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, THAT would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin.Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect.

I'm not sure how that works for your theology. How could all of God's plan come together without sinful men committing sin? Let's take just one example of thousands; The Son of God must be sacrificed, put to death, for the sins of the people. How does this happen with God detached from orchestrating the events, which involve sin?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Ben, Ben, Ben. Haven't I explained that your wordiness is handicapping you? You use many words with a confusion of thought. There is a dense undergrowth that needs to be cleared away. If you don't have the ability to communicate in a more succinct manner, you are doomed to fail.

Using 115 words in a "sentence" is a recipe for disaster. What further complicates matters is your poor grammar.

Then, on top of those weaknesses, is your ineffective man-centered theology.

What preachers (if any) do you listen to on sermonaudio.com? Or is your theology entirely self-derived?

.

Brother Rippon,

He avoids answers to my questions too. I asked if God's will is the first cause of all causes, if not, who is? He then tells me this premise is false, but doesn't offer any alternative of who is the first cause of all causes or if he believes there are effects with no causes. Some creature has to be the first cause as we know every effect has a cause (with the exception of God who is eternal). He also never replied to my long post # 57 in which I attempted to answer his questions. It is frustrating to debate someone like that.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Some say that God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, THAT would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin.Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect.

Brother Earth,

Hello. God predestinates (or in other words predetermines) everything, but is not the direct cause of sin. God can predetermine something without working evil in a creature's heart. The evil is already there. Secondary causes create sin (i.e. the devil and man's totally depraved flesh). Who is responsible for any good that is carried out by you, yourself or God in you? Also, did God predestinate the crucifixion of Christ, and if so, did that make Him the author of sin in so doing?

Hope you enjoy the fourth in the great country!

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother Earth,

Hello. God predestinates (or in other words predetermines) everything, but is not the direct cause of sin. God can predetermine something without working evil in a creature's heart. The evil is already there. Secondary causes create sin (i.e. the devil and man's totally depraved flesh). Who is responsible for any good that is carried out by you, yourself or God in you? Also, did God predestinate the crucifixion of Christ, and if so, did that make Him the author of sin in so doing?

Hope you enjoy the fourth in the great country!

God bless,


Brother Joe

OK then ....in scripture, show me where it sites that God predestines everything we do and say....absolutely everything.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

OK then ....in scripture, show me where it sites that God predestines everything we do and say....absolutely everything.

Brother Earth,

I bought up Christ's crucifixion to show how God can predestinate a wicked event, but not be the author of sin since you asserted if he predestinated all things he would be the author of sin.

Here is a scripture that shows God predestinates all things,

"him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11)

How can God work something after his will and it not be predestinated? Can you give me an example?

Also,
"16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
7 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Colossians 1:16-17)

This ICB version puts Colossians 1:7 this way, "17 Christ was there before anything was made. And all things continue because of him"

What things do you believe God did not predestinate?

 

[Van]

Bottom line, I did not say knowledge of the future with certainty causes predestination, I said Calvinism teaches knowledge of the future with 100% certainty presumes that future was predestined by something.

No amount of jabberwocky will change reality.

No amount of appealing to "experts who have studied" will alter reality.

No appeal to mystery.

Nothing.

Calvinism teaches exhaustive determinism, every detail of the future is predestined, because God's perfect knowledge of the future presupposes it.

Doctrines that create paradoxes that are peddled on the basis of "it is a mystery but with God all things are possible" are suspect.

There are only two solutions actually offered by advocates of the failed doctrines, either "its a mystery" or "time travel" where when we experience the future, it is unfixed and alternate outcomes are possible, but God knows what happened because He looks at it "from outside time." In a word, those so-called solutions are twaddle.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now I see where the confusion is here Joe..... we are talking past one another. When you looked at the "predestination " scriptures I posted did you notice something specifically mentioned in the verses? Predestination is always about *people* not *events*. Notice the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren." This is a huge point and please do not miss it. God did not predestinate all things that transpire but He predestinated all whom He foreknew. Some out there say that God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Again that would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin. Now, there are some things God “decreed” to happen when they did (you mentioned that with your Christs death and ressurection example) but that is a completely different subject. PREDESTINATION (the doctrine of) however is only concerned with the destiny of the elect.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Now I see where the confusion is here Joe..... we are talking past one another. When you looked at the "predestination " scriptures I posted did you notice something specifically mentioned in the verses? Predestination is always about *people* not *events*. Notice the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren." This is a huge point and please do not miss it..

Brother Steve,

I agree the word "predestination" is used only in reference to people, not events, but the Bible clearly sets forth the doctrine of the predestination of all things by using words that have the same meaning such as "appointed', "ordained", "decreed". The Bible does not use the word "trinity" in reference to God, but it also is clearly taught in scripture. The absolute predestination of all things is evident in Ephesians 1:11, "...him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" If everything works after God's own will, it is thus predetermined by His will before it actually happens, is it not?

The Bible even goes so far as to tell us the disobedience of the nonelect was "appointed" by God when Peter declares, " being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed"(1 Peter 2:8). The wicked were "ordained" to destruction, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation" (Jude 1:4). God also tells us, "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4)

Other verses make his predestination of all things evident. "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps." (Proverbs 16:9) and "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23)

In the book of Psalms it says: “The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. (37:23)” Notice the italicized word “good”. That word was added by the translators, thus the verse actually says, “The steps of man are ordered by the Lord.” The Hebrew word in this verse for “are ordered” is defined as“ established” according Strong's Hebrew Concordance http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3559.htm

Finally, consider this verse, "24 Man's goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Proverbs 20:24)

The Lord's prayer tells us, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10). Do you think Jesus's prayer was in vain and didn't come true, or is His will done on earth?

God did not predestinate all things that transpire but He predestinated all whom He foreknew. Some out there say that God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Again that would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin...

Was God the author of sin because he predestinated the wicked acts of evil men to crucify his son to bring redemption for His elect? Also, all evil that was predestinated is carried out by secondary causes, the devil and/or man's totally depraved flesh, thus God is not authoring the sin. The devil is no more than God's pawn as seen by how God controlled him in Job and he uses Satan's wicked acts to accomplish God's Holy purposes. Take for example Joseph being betrayed by his brothers, "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Genesis 50:20) Notice in Job though it was the devil how did everything to Job, Job said that God did it, "21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). Did Job tell the truth when he said the Lord did this? If so, then you may see how God uses Satan and wicked men in accomplishing His purposes. Job said that God did it, and the record of the next verse says that, "22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly" (Job 1:22).

Also, any good that a child of God does is only because of God "working in us". Call it a robot if you want, but the scripture is clear, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). It is God's will according to this verse, not the will of our flesh when a child of God does anything good.

Was it God's will that sin come into the earth? Also, what events do you believe God didn't predestinate?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK then I have a question; did God “wrought” all of David’s works when he had the affair with Bathsheba and subsequently arranged for her husband’s death?

 

[Benjamin]

Brother Benjamin,

It took me quite some time to compose my post below to you last night in an attempt to answer your questions. Please take some time to quote from this post the points and rebuttal.
Also, did God predestinate that Christ be crucified, if so, was this evil of Him? Finally, I know you stated my premise is wrong that God's will is the first cause of all causes. I am a simple man and perhaps didn't see or understand your reply to my original question of if God is not the first cause of all causes who is? Can you answer that in a few sentences? Do you believe everything has a cause (of course with the exception of God) or do you maintain there are effects with no causes? Thank you and enjoy your holiday.

Brother, it also took me quite some time to bring you back to your original question (argument) and to demonstrate that I in fact did answer it, both in detail AND in short sentences. Frankly, I am a bit perplexed that while you talk about how a debate should go forward you would continue to ignore that I have taken your leading argument back to its roots and that you will use this as a point of contention in the debate rather than acknowledging the subject matter which directly deals with your reasoning.

I'm beginning to believe you must simply not be getting the answer you prefer and are avoiding going into depth about the argument you have started with.


I am not interested in spending the time to chase after new rabbit trails of the scriptural food fight proof-texting sort which I merely see not as ethical debate protocol but as smokescreen tactics when you can't seem to/or refuse follow the root argument which you present and I fully addressed already.

As per the bulk of your proof-texting (which interpretations are seemingly designed to support your idea that God can cause evil yet not be responsible for it) I answered that in general, I referred to it as the "post below" but, again, am not interested in spending the time chasing down every proof-texting rabbit trail you can come up with while you fail to acknowledge the root argument about Deterministic doctrines and the logical consequences of such doctrines leading to God being the author of sin. Seriously, what will prove to me with your proof-texting? - That God is the first cause of evil but it not responsible for it??? It may not the way you like or are used to "debating" BUT all these issues have been addressed and I have no intention of being baited to go down new rabbit trails before the acknowledgment of my counter argument which shows your opening premises to fall short of truth.

Talk about being frustrated with Rippon (The King of avoiding issues through focus on rhetoric and Ad Hominem)?! You might want to note how much detail I went into to address your opening argument:

Perhaps you have not read my reply very carefully because I not only answered your question but I broke down your “argument” (BTW, that is what your question is, an attempt to prove a claim by providing reason for accepting it. The claim that is supported is called the conclusion to the argument and claims providing the support are called the premises. Those issues are what I focus on in a debate. It seems that you are ignoring that I have addressed them but that won't make them go away. ) into its premises while clearly addressing the first premise – “God is the first cause of all causes” - Again, to begin with the first premise I explained:

“My questions are posed in order to draw out the truth in your argument by directing you to examine the substance of your claim, or IOWs the reasoning behind your claim by which you draw your conclusion. In this case you must first deal with the origin of sin and the “Problem Of Evil” for your premise of God being the “first cause of all causes” to stand as true.”

You apparently are countering with the reasoning in the post below that God is the cause of all evil but somehow cannot be responsible for the evil because He is Holy. Let’s examine your reasoning further which I contend unavoidably equates into Hard Determinism and logically presents God as the author of (responsible for) sin:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined (is the first cause of) everything that will happen
2) God has determined (caused) X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

X = man’s choices
X = evil

The above is a simple logical truth and clearly demonstrates your first premise (and counter argument) to be false. Why? Because your reasoning unavoidably concludes that God is responsible for evil happening.

If you are truly interested in debate then you will have to at least acknowledge that I have been addressing your arguments and stop with the suggestions that I have evaded them.

I even explained that I began “answering your question” by breaking your argument down:

“So IOWs as for answering your question it must first be broken down, which the first premise poses (supposedly supported by the scripture you gave) that God is the first causes of all causes, which by any rational critical thinking skills must include evil and thereby carry down to the last details of the sins of man (by which I countered your interpretation by comparing scripture to scripture) is where I began.”

God cannot be responsible for evil, (unless you would like to go down the road of Theological Fatalism), so as for the first premise of your argument which concludes that “God is the first cause of all causes” I contend that such cannot be true because it would logically make God the author of evil. Therefore, after a previous explanation that you would have to include evil within those causes I gave you this answer:

“In consideration of the Nature of God I can without a doubt tell you that your first premise is false.”

Just in case, to make it perfectly clear that I have answered your “question” – Premise #1: NO, God is NOT the first cause of all causes. He logically cannot be any more than He can make a rock bigger than He can lift.

Now, for the second part of your “question” – Premise #2: What/who is the cause? Simply put man is held responsible in truth for being the cause of evil. But, again, I already clearly answered this in length also:

“As to your second premise, which you should probably understand is already doomed to come to a false conclusion considering your first premise, the first cause of evil was man with the help of Satan, which was made possible through the divine design of God’s creatures to have the free will/human volition to disobey God – by which each and every one will “genuinely be held responsible” for being the “cause” of except for the grace of our Loving Creator who provided the Way of salvation for ALL who love and believe the truth with that precious gift of a mind to all mankind to have the ability to reason through human volition/free will.”

BTW, it appears that below you are attempting to proclaim a compatibilist view as if the responsibility for the cause of an action can be both true and not true. My friend, Determinism and Human Volition are logically mutually exclusive and God’s judgment in the matter of the responsibility for the cause will be in truth. From the beginning God’s creation was “very good” and He had designed men with free will/human volition, the nature of God is without evil OF ANY KIND, all His ways are judgment and you should rest assured that this judgment over the responsibility for the cause of evil is done in truth:

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not sure how that works for your theology. How could all of God's plan come together without sinful men committing sin? Let's take just one example of thousands; The Son of God must be sacrificed, put to death, for the sins of the people. How does this happen with God detached from orchestrating the events, which involve sin?

What theology are you referring to? Then after you answer that question, please define for me your consept of predestination.

 

[Benjamin]

Brother Benjamin,

It took me quite some time to compose my post below to you last night in an attempt to answer your questions. Please take some time to quote from this post the points and rebuttal.
Also, did God predestinate that Christ be crucified, if so, was this evil of Him?

BTW, Brother, if you did not understand my reference about you will prove to me by your proof-texting I do believe Wesley sums this issue of God being responsible for the cause of evil quite well:

This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree+ of predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every assertor of it. You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture that God is worse than the devil I cannot be. Whatever that Scripture proves, it never an prove this; whatever its true meaning be. This cannot be its true meaning. Do you ask, "What is its true meaning then" If I say, " I know not," you have gained nothing; for there are many scriptures the true sense whereof neither you nor I shall know till death is swallowed up in victory. But this I know, better it were to say it had no sense, than to say it had such a sense as this. It cannot mean, whatever it mean besides, that the God of truth is a liar. Let it mean what it will it cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust. No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works; that is, whatever it prove beside, no scripture can prove predestination.

You have a good holiday also. Many blessings.

 

[Van]

Predestination is always about *people* not *events*.

This should include the events and circumstances that the "people" encounter, such as the cross of Christ.

The Greek term transliterated as proorizo and translated usually as predestined appears 7 times in six verses in the New Testament.

In Acts 4:28 it is used to describe that the suffering of Christ was predestined as part of God’s foretold plan of redemption. So the term applies to a feature of God’s predetermined plan.

In Romans 8:29 all those in Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. So, again, the term applies to a feature of God’s predetermined plan applicable to anyone in Christ, not to those not yet in Christ.

In Romans 8:30 the term simply repeats the usage of Romans 8:29, those predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are called to a Holy calling.

In 1 Corinthians 2:7 the term is again applied to Christ as the predestined Lord of Glory.

In Ephesians 1:5 the term is applied to all those in Christ as predestined to be adopted as sons, raised in glorified bodies.

In Ephesians 1:11 the term is applied to those in Christ as being predestined to an inheritance, everlasting life with God, which is the fulfillment of God’s purpose in creation and predestined plan from all eternity.

In summary, the term is only applied to features of God’s predetermined plan affecting Christ or all those, whoever they may be, in Christ. It is never used to describe either the unconditional selection of specific foreseen individuals nor the conditional selection of specific foreseen individuals with foreseen faith, which are the erroneous views of the Calvinists and the Arminians.

 

[Rebel]

You and IJ are cut from the same cloth. Tell me now, if you think a comparison between you two is warranted or not. I have a little test for you. It will make you feel a bit awkward. But give it a go. Do you endorse everything IJ said about me? If the answer is a resounding YES, then the comparison between you two is certainly warranted. If, on the other hand, you think he went too far --then openly admit it. The choice is yours.

Yeah, that about settles the matter. You an IJ are two peas from the same ole' pod.

There is no pretense that you are a rebel to the Protestant Faith.

I didn't read everything IJ said about you and feel no need to. That is between you and him. What I said about you is based on your responses to me.

Oh, I don't deny that I am not Protestant. I am very happy not to be Protestant or Catholic. That puts me out of the line of persecutors and murderers, and admirers and defenders of them.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh, I don't deny that I am not Protestant. I am very happy not to be Protestant or Catholic. That puts me out of the line of persecutors and murderers, and admirers and defenders of them.

Wooooooooo ...ha ha! Thats telling him :thumbs:

Keep that stuff "pure " my friend.