1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Eternal Purpose of Christ PT 3

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SovereignGrace, Aug 17, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 3 of 7
  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The point I am trying to make is the unregenerate put their faith in everything but Christ. They may put it in their doctor, if they have an illness. They may put it in themselves. They may put in their companion. They will object Christ, not use Him as the object of their faith.
     
    #41 SovereignGrace, Aug 19, 2015
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    I agree. Use the example of a doctor when a person is ill. Perhaps he is facing an operation such as a heart by-pass. He may want to do some research first and make sure that the doctor is experienced, has been successful, is not just a recent graduate and your his first patient, etc. He wants to be able to put his confidence (or faith) in that doctor that he can perform what he said he can do.

    That is what Abraham said:
    Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    --He was fully persuaded that what God had promised he wall able to perform.

    It is the object of a person's faith. This "so-called faith" does not have to go through a "regeneration-mill" to gain supernatural qualities. I don't know why Calvinists insist on this. It is simple faith, as Abraham described and as the illustration demonstrates. It is the object of the faith that is important, which is Christ and him alone. I think we can agree on that.

    Now where disagreement can come is in this area:
    You seem to be saying that it is impossible for an unsaved man to put his faith in Christ. He cannot choose Christ. But the Bible doesn't teach that.
    How can it teach that, when many came to Christ for various things including salvation and simply put their faith in him. That is all that Christ required of man.
     
    #42 DHK, Aug 19, 2015
  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet, even after all the miracles the disciples saw Jesus perform, Christ told Peter Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven."[Matt. 16:17] Their eyes had been opened to the deity of Christ, who He was. Others saw who He really was/is and cried out to Him. As Jesus stated to the Jewish leaders I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.[Jn. 8:37] These same leaders Jesus told them You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.[Jn. 8:44]
     
    #43 SovereignGrace, Aug 19, 2015
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is how I understand it. The unsaved man wants nothing to do with Christ whatsoever. He is content to live in his sins. As it is written “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.'"[Lu. 19:14] They want to live their lives unintruded by His authority. They love darkness and not Light. They want nothing to do with that Light. They want to live in darkness.

    Unless God shines that Light in their hearts, wroughts His work of grace within their hearts, they will never come to that Light. Once He shines that Light into their heart, it illumines their mind, to show them their sinfullness, to show them their true need of Him. It causes the gospel to bring to light their need of Him. As Paul wrote to Timothy He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.[2 Tim. 2:9,10] Once God has wrought that work of grace in sinners' hearts, it changes their will, their desire. The gospel now brings to Light and Life the gospel being preached to hearts anew...anew by a heart transplant[Ez. 11:19 & 36:26]...to ears that now can hear[Mk. 4:9 & Lu. 8:8]...and eyes that now can see...[Jn. 9:25].
     
    #44 SovereignGrace, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2015
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 and the natural man has it not since the natural man in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    All of the unregenerate are in the flesh and cannot please God, which Faith does Heb 11:6 !
     
    #45 savedbymercy, Aug 19, 2015
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    But that is not an absolute statement. It is a general statement. There are some that want to live in the light. Remember that this is a parable. Let's consider the context.
    First it was told immediately after the salvation of Zaccheus and the subsequent dining of Jesus in his house.

    Luk 19:6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
    Luk 19:7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
    --They despised him because he ate with a publican, a tax collector, a sinner. How could he do such a thing? For this he was hated.
    Immediately after Jesus speaks this parable. It was directed to the Pharisees.

    Immediately after the parable, what was the response?

    Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
    Luk 19:28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

    First he begins his journey into Jerusalem. It is Palm Sunday.
    There is great rejoicing and glory given to God.

    Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

    Then the Pharisees complain.
    Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

    But the answer of Jesus:
    Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
    Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
    --The Parable was for the Pharisees of that time.
    Jesus wept over the city of Jerusalem, not just the elect but all its inhabitants. He knew the suffering that they would endure, the death that would come upon them. Even now he knew of their rejection of Him. This is not one who was going to the cross for just the elect. He wept for all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.


    Where does the Bible teach that? It doesn't. You need to do an awful lot of extrapolation to get to that point. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is clearly defined in John 16:8-11.
    He came "to convict the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment. Of sin because they believe not on me..."
    Again you are simply taking very figurative language and applying it to NT theology and forcing it into scripture to fit an already pre-conceived theology.
    Anyone can string together scriptures from here and there to make up their theology. But if it doesn't fit the rest of the Bible what then? I don't believe it is. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that regeneration produces faith.
     
    #46 DHK, Aug 19, 2015
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Your testimony (profile) is that you live in Atlanta and are married to a godly wife. Do you have faith in your wife that she will not lead you down a carnal path?
     
    #47 DHK, Aug 19, 2015
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    We not talking about me, but what the scriptures teach! Now those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 !
     
    #48 savedbymercy, Aug 19, 2015
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    You referred to "the natural man," "the fruit of the Spirit," "the unregenerate man," so we are talking about people. As far as I know you fall into that category. You also "have flesh." So just answer the question:

    Your testimony (profile) is that you live in Atlanta and are married to a godly wife. Do you have faith in your wife that she will not lead you down a carnal path?
     
    #49 DHK, Aug 19, 2015
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    I'm not talking about me but the scriptures, those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 and since Faith pleases God Hebrew 11:6 those in the flesh can't do it!
     
    #50 savedbymercy, Aug 19, 2015
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    Man by nature has a Faith no doubt, but it is of the flesh John 3:6 , and so it is a dead faith James 2:26 it is from a spiritually dead person without the life of God!
     
    #51 savedbymercy, Aug 19, 2015
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    This Roman centurion was not saved. Therefore you would say his faith was "dead." But what does Jesus say:

    Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    His faith was greater than any other person in all of Israel. How do you account for that?
     
    #52 DHK, Aug 19, 2015
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    There's no need to speculate, those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8 :8 and Faith pleases God Hebrew 11:6 ! If the RC had a Faith that pleased God then he was not in the flesh, meaning He was Born of the Spirit, if he wasn't born again then his faith was dead and generated by the flesh! Also who said he wasn't saved? Is that your opinion or scripture fact ?
     
    #53 savedbymercy, Aug 19, 2015
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    It is not speculation. It is a demonstration that your Calvinistic understanding of Scripture is flawed.
     
    #54 DHK, Aug 19, 2015
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    DHK

    Most of these you speak of thought they were in the Kingdom with Jesus returning to earth around 1033 ad.....they were wrong about the date.
    They did not believe the idea offered by the "Plymouth brethren"

    We all learn from the pen of John....those of us who walk in the light.


    HOLD ON DHK....you skipped over the verses we were discussing....because you cannot admit your ERROR.

    Here is what you posted...;

    HERE in ACTS 4 the apostles explain it was fulfilled when these leaders executed Jesus. they said this which you ignore

    24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

    25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

    26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
    27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

    28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

    This thread is about the eternal purpose of God. The Apostles by the Holy Spirit identify what happened to Jesus as fulfilling psalm 2....and you ignore it saying it is future because of your dispensational calendar.

    The Holy Spirit had them quote psalm 2 right here...not in the future.:laugh:

    -
    They are speaking of God's eternal purpose....what has been ORDAINED


    Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
    Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
    Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
    .[/QUOTE]

    I didn't miss anything....I was not talking about prayer here...I was talking about your error ignoring PSALM 2:laugh:

    You still do not get it....how much error are you going to post?
     
    #55 Iconoclast, Aug 19, 2015
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes it was a parable...a parable to tell an absolute truth. The unregenerate want nothing to do with God or His ways. They do not want to keep company(hang out with them) with the children of God. There is an old saying...'birds of a feather flock together.' I wanted nothing to do with the church. I would be respectful to them when I was around them, and even enjoyed their company, but I did not want to hang out with them. At the end of the parable Jesus stated "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”[Lu. 19:27] Then in Matthew 21, Jesus told them the parable of the tenants overseeing the vineyard. He would send delegation to collect his portion of the fruits due him, and they would kill them. Even when he sent his son, they killed him, knowing he was the heir to the vineyard. This was a parable of God and the Jews, who killed Jesus by the sovereign will of God. God then rented that vineyard out to other tenants(Gentiles) after the king brought those 'wretches to a wretched end.'[vs 41a]


    Yes He directed it towards the Pharisees. They wanted nothing to do with Him. They, being in darkness, hated the Light. Jesus stated When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”[Jn. 8:12] And then He also said "While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”[Jn. 9:5] Then in John 1, John noted There was a man sent from God whose name was John(the Baptist). He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.[Jn. 1:6-9] Then in John 3 Jesus stated This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.[Jn. 3:19,20]

    Sinners are in darkness and what Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?[2 Cor. 6:14b] Sinners can not come to the Light unless first drawn by the Light. Why? As Jesus stated "It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”[Jn. 11:10] Sinners are in the night, in the darkness and can not see. Just as the blind man said, "I was blind but now I see!”[Jn. 9:25] They are blinded in and by their sins and can not see their need of a Saviour. They are deafened and can not hear the gospel. They have sin-hardened hearts that can not Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.[Jas. 1:21]

    They wanted nothing to do with Him because they were not of His sheep. They hated Him, hated the Light, and wanted nothing to do with that Light, Jesus Christ.

    Glory!! :jesus:

    The Pharisees wanted nothing to do with Him. They even sent spies to try to catch Him up in His sayings. Yet, when He was before Annas and Caiaphas, their witnesses would never agree. They were always accusing Him wrongly. They accused Him of having an evil spirit when they said “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”[Matt. 12:24]

    Christ was just as much Man as He was/is God. He gets no delight in the death of the wicked, yet in His holiness, sin must never go unpunished. It is either punished in the sinner or the Sinbearer. If the Sinbearer was punished for their sins, then the ones whose sins He atoned, they will not be punished in hell for them. He took what was rightly our punishment, by But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.[Isa. 53:5]


    Again, to keep from typing my fingers into oblivion, I will copy and past a portion of this post here.

    Yes He directed it towards the Pharisees. They wanted nothing to do with Him. They, being in darkness, hated the Light. Jesus stated When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”[Jn. 8:12] And then He also said "While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”[Jn. 9:5] Then in John 1, John noted There was a man sent from God whose name was John(the Baptist). He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.[Jn. 1:6-9] Then in John 3 Jesus stated This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.[Jn. 3:19,20]

    Sinners are in darkness and what Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?[2 Cor. 6:14b] Sinners can not come to the Light unless first drawn by the Light. Why? As Jesus stated "It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”[Jn. 11:10] Sinners are in the night, in the darkness and can not see. Just as the blind man said, "I was blind but now I see!”[Jn. 9:25] They are blinded in and by their sins and can not see their need of a Saviour. They are deafened and can not hear the gospel. They have sin-hardened hearts that can not Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.[Jas. 1:21]



    You are the one who is having trouble, mon ami, and not I.

    You say 'faith is faith' and then said not all faiths save.
    You say that Acts is a book of transition and then quote it quite often.
    You say the passages we used from Psalms are poetical language and not relevant to these discussions, yet the word states All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.[2 Tim. 3:16,17]
     
    #56 SovereignGrace, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2015
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    You wish!!!
    Their beliefs were not even close to those which you believe.

    Act 1:6-7
    (6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    (7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    They asked Jesus at that time if he was going to set up his kingdom.
    Jesus answered no. It was not for them to know the time. Rather they were to go and preach the gospel instead (vs.8) The kingdom has not been set up. It wasn't set up then (in the time of Christ or his apostles, John included). You have been deceived.

    I don't know. Some people never seem to learn. :D

    What error..:sleep:

    Psalm 2 is a Messianic Psalm having a total of 12 verses.
    Peter quotes only from the first two verses.
    Much of the rest of the Psalm predicts and describes that time which follows the Second Coming which we call The Millennial Kingdom. Thus most of it is still future.

    And yes, you still ignored the main purpose of the prayer--what were they praying for?

    That is not the purpose of their prayer.


    I didn't miss anything....I was not talking about prayer here...I was talking about your error ignoring PSALM 2:

    You still do not get it....how much error are you going to post?[/QUOTE]
    You still do not understand the purpose of their praying.
    They were praying for power and boldness. God answered their prayer. He answered it miraculously. I did not ignore Psalm 2. It was a passing reference in his prayer.
     
    #57 DHK, Aug 20, 2015
  18. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    Worthless comments!
     
    #58 savedbymercy, Aug 20, 2015
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    :laugh:DHK

    I read that in one of my premillennial books.




    wrong again...[shocking]:laugh: look again at verse 6...[restore again/to Israel].....they knew the old Israel was rejected , they wanted to know when and if they could be restored


    The Kingdom had indeed began....

    yes...when I read premillenial books I was confused as you are now....you cannot understand Acts 4 because of it....or Hebrews 8....or Heb 12...in fact you are virtually confused on everything:laugh:

    that is what we have to keep telling you



    And you think this was random????lol give us a break DHK....you are clueless on this passage.....you deny scripture yet again....The only reason He speaks about Psalm 2 is to assure the early church Jesus is indeed in control and when they do go to prayer they can know He is with them so they be confident and bold in the faith.

    wrong, false, scripture denying falsehood, nothing in the text mentions any of those things.....the text describes a present reality.[ not to you however, you have satan ruling your world as you have posted many times...


    And yes, you still ignored the main purpose of the prayer--what were they praying for?


    That is not the purpose of their prayer.




    I didn't miss anything....I was not talking about prayer here...I was talking about your error ignoring PSALM 2:

    You still do not get it....how much error are you going to post?[/QUOTE]
    .
    [/QUOTE]

    that might be the most ridiculous post of the year....the Spirit is poured out, people are getting saved, healed, ...and you suggest it was "a passing reference"...lol.....
     
    #59 Iconoclast, Aug 20, 2015
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    You cannot even read my post correctly......you totally avoided the psalm....read read your post you left it out and did not explain it at all as to why the used it.....when I mentioned it gere....I am saying you did not mention the psalm that explains the events leading to the cross as fulfilling what GOD has ordained......which was fulfilled. ....you did not mention it except to deny it was a fulfillment denying the rebellion of those on earth against the Heavenly kingdom.
     
    #60 Iconoclast, Aug 20, 2015
Page 3 of 7
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...