1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Death before the age of accountability

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AndThisGospel, Jan 14, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Lucifer thing isn't even valid anyway. It's just lifted from Latin, not a proper name in Hebrew (which is what it would have to be to have been a proper name in the original text).

    That being said, if you create something with 100% infallible knowledge that a certain outcome will occur, that's creating the outcome. Setting a timer on a bomb doesn't mean you can say the timer caused the explosion and not you.
     
  2. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Conclusion: God created a perfect cherub and named him Lucifer, which means "the morning star"....

    Having stated that fact I have another question: Didn't God know that Lucifer would rebel and become Satan, "the adversary"?

    Answer: Yes!

    Question: Then why did He create him anyway?
     
  3. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Bad analogy.....God didn't create a bomb....Lucifer, a perfect being, became a bomb. That's not God's fault.

    God took the chance when He decided to create free-will beings in His image and likeness. He knew that angelic perfection would fail, but He created him anyway. Why?
     
  4. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's not a bad analogy. It's just contrary to the usual knee-jerk "get God off the hook" responses.

    When you are 100% perfect in omniscience, you know the result before you begin the creation.

    In this case, God would know the result (Satan) before creating anything, no matter how "perfect."
     
  5. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    God is not responsible for iniquity. That was Lucifer's creation or invention.

    Yes, He knew....He knew that angelic perfection, and human perfection, would fail. Did both have to fail? No, but nevertheless He knew it would and that Lucifer would become His adversary.

    So the real question is why did God proceed?
     
  6. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    With 100% omniscience, I don't see how you avoid responsibility other than just declaring it not to be so (which really doesn't do much).

    Why? The answer is because he wanted sin to occur.
     
  7. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    So you are telling me that God, a holy & righteous being, who hates sin created sin?

    That's a terrible conclusion. Show me, using the Bible, that God "wanted sin to occur"!
     
  8. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, assuming omniscience and omnipotence:

    Created the conditions for sin to emerge? yes.

    It's the same concept with hell. Why do people go there? He wants them to.

    If God has full knowledge and all power, things only happen because he either causes them directly or doesn't stop them. If he really didn't want a certain outcome to occur, he would stop it.
     
  9. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Yes, God created free-will beings with the limited possibility to rebel against their Maker and His agape love. He knew Lucifer & 1/3 the angels would rebel, but He allowed it away. He didn't ordain it...He allowed it, but for a purpose.
     
  10. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ordain vs. allow is meaningless if you have perfect foreknowledge.

    If he did it for a purpose, that means he wanted it to happen.
     
  11. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    I don't know about where you work, but where I work management is always coming up with ideas to make the business more profitable. Most know what they are really after is job promotion, i.e., climbing to the top.

    The question is how do you know if an idea is good or bad? Just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean the idea will work in the real world. The only way to test a theory is to allow it to develop.
     
  12. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    He allowed it for a purpose and that purpose was so that iniquity would never happen again....
     
  13. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here's my turn to say bad analogy.

    If God has 100% perfect omniscience, he knows EXACTLY how things will develop before he starts anything.
     
  14. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That would be insanity.
     
  15. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Yes, and He knew that if he created free-will beings, that some would rebel against the foundation of His government, which is agape love.

    Lucifer found agape too restrictive. He wished to improve upon the lot the angels. So Lucifer came up with the idea of a u-turn agape. The Bible calls this iniquity. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self.
     
  16. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Calling God insane? Hmmm?

    Anyway, let's say you're God, and you want to create free-will beings, but because your creation is based on "free will" you run the risk that it could turn against you. What do you do?
     
  17. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A deity in that scenario would be insane to create an outcome that would otherwise not occur in order to avoid that outcome.

    If you're omniscient, you know don't run a risk. You know with absolute certainty.
     
  18. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    He knew that free-will beings would be problematic....So He had two choices. Make us like robots or take the chance....He went with the latter.

    Lucifer rebelled against God's agape love. He insisted that self-love was better than God's agape love. Again, the only way to test a theory is to allow it to develop and thereby expose the nature of sin so that future created beings would not be deceived by Lucifer's system of self-love.
     
  19. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You're missing the point. There is no chance with an omniscient deity. He knows everything that will ever occur with absolute certainty from before the first moment of time. With or without free will, the outcome would be absolutely and inescapably certain.
     
  20. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    No, it is you who are missing the point.

    God knew sin would arise in the creation of free-will beings. He also knew that "sin is a deceiver". That's why 1/3 of the angels followed Lucifer. That's why our original parents fell.

    The only way to ensure righteousness & immorality to future beings was to expose the fallacy of self-love (sin). Once exposed sin would not arise a second time. All will have witnessed that the love of self ultimately brings ruin and death.

    Satan's rebellion against God's agape was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's love of self, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...