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Jesus Marvelled At Unblief! Why?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Rockson, Jul 19, 2018.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I did not say he was blind. I said trying to carry on a discussion with someone who says "what you are really saying" when what I was really saying, according to him, was the exact opposite of what I actually said, is like ("like" identifies my statement as a simile (Simile: a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g., as brave as a lion, crazy like a fox )) a blind man and color or a deaf man and music.

    Yes, we all know your opinion of me. And, of course, using metaphors and similes is arrogant, ungodly, and unbecoming a Christian, which explains why we see then so often in that arrogant, ungodly, and unbecoming book, the bible.

    Judges 6:5 “They came up with their livestock and their tents like swarms of locusts.”

    1 Thessalonians 5:2 “For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”

    Matthew 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.”

    Matthew 28:3 “His appearance was like lightning and his clothes were white as snow.”

    Matthew 23:27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.”

    Matthew 13:52 “Every teacher of the law who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house.”

    Proverbs 10:26 “Like vinegar to the teeth and smoke to the eyes, so is the lazy one to those who send him.”

    Proverbs 25:11 “A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.”

    Matthew 10:16 “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.”

    Revelation 1:14 “His head and hair were white like wool, as white a snow, and his eyes were like burning fire.”

    Song of Solomon 2:3 “As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons.”

    Psalms 102:6 “I am like a pelican of the wilderness: I am like an owl of the desert.”

    1 Peter 1:2 “All flesh is as grass, and all the glory thereof as the flower of grass.”

    Psalms 131:2 “Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.”

    Isaiah 1:9 “Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.”

    And so on, and on, and on. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
    #81 TCassidy, Sep 13, 2018
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  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That fact that I did not include the "like" is neither here nor there it doesn't change what I said and I really didn't change what you said. obviously no one thinks he is physically blind so the use of "like" can be used or not used and both ways of saying that mean exactly the same thing. Not sure why that needs explaining.

    This is your strawman I never argued that "using metaphors and similes is arrogant, ungodly, and unbecoming a Christian". I never even implied such an idea. It might help you out to ask for clarification before jumping to your usual conclusions.

    I will, for your benefit so you can understand what was obvious in my previous post, break down my original intent since you are like a democrat who cannot actually respond with anything substantial and must obfuscate with strawman to avoid and admission of guilt.

    It is not the use if similies etc that makes one arrogant. It is assuming that the person you responded to was "like" a blind man because he does not agree with you. The arrogance is in your assumption that there is no good reason why this person with whom you disagree should see it any way other than how you do so it must be true that he for some reason cannot use the reason you have so therefore he is like a blind man who will not see.

    It fails to give him equal consideration that he may have done the same amount of research as you, given the same amount of thought about the subject, and has given the same amount of good logic and reason. Your post in fact belittles both his posts and his position.

    If I remember correctly you said you disliked my use of the term "calvies" for exactly the same reason. Physician I suggest you heal yourself.
     
    #82 Revmitchell, Sep 13, 2018
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Obviously you don't understand what a simile is and what its use implies.

    As you don't seem to understand this common figure of speech, it obviously needs to be explained to you.

    Perhaps if you tried to use a little more clarity in your posts?

    There you go! You used a simile! LOL!

    It was not about his disagreeing. It was about taking what I said and saying I said exactly the opposite.

    He may have done research into what I said? Obviously he didn't or he would not have claimed I said the opposite of what I actually said.

    I am not a Physician. And neither are you. Duh!
     
    #83 TCassidy, Sep 13, 2018
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    If that is the response you want to go with so be it.
     
    #84 Revmitchell, Sep 13, 2018
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    When you can't address the content, attack the character.

    Name one sin greater than not able to approach God. Not a unreasonable request.


    See I believe someone already fits the bill of being "bad as they can be" if they can't do anything right in God's eyes.
     
    #85 utilyan, Sep 13, 2018
  6. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Not if one has gone beyond the extreme in defining just what depravity means.

    Aren't you really playing word games here? Is it possible to make this decision without a new heart? You'd say no so what's the difference. It seems you're insistent on wanting to change this up is because you KNOW it truly would be real LOVE if there was no free will decision so you have the nature changed and they can make all the free will decisions they want. Well I think most would agree there still would not have been any free will choice....therefore NO LOVE.

    Well IMO this is so very, very sad what you're advocating. Tell me I'm wrong if you like but there is no REAL LOVE in your universe. If there is no choice or decision to love or not to love all you have left is a boring, insipid , empty existence of one not genuinely being appreciated. If you're saying sinners didn't choose anything then there is no love.

    Well look if one believes that's a decision....if one repents that's a decision, and if one obeys it is the same. One does so things because they choose LOVE. You've claimed God did not put those decisions in man but you seem to try bring it through the door some other way. Oh he put the nature in them and they never had to choose...AUTOMATIC. Again I'd say if you don't have any REAL choice you might need to consider....you don't even know it you truly love God. I mean how would you know?
     
    #86 Rockson, Sep 13, 2018
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    He said ye must be born again.
     
    #87 Aaron, Sep 13, 2018
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  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    And, Cassidy didn't say the blues brutha was blind just because he disagrees. He's saying patently false things. I fart better theology than utilyan at his best.
     
    #88 Aaron, Sep 13, 2018
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    That is exactly what I have NOT done. utilyan said total depravity means every person is as bad as he can be. That is extremism. Total depravity means only that the total man, body, soul, and spirit, has been ruined by the fall. Lost people do good things every day. The bible even tells us that a lost man gives his children food when their are hungry.

    No. I'm not. I realize those not trained in Theology often have difficultly understanding the Theological meaning of certain terms, but those Theological meanings are very well established.

    The lost man cannot chose to love God because he hates God and considers God his enemy.

    Correct. The lost man does not love God.

    I am advocating what the bible clearly says. 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Please do not blaspheme. God is Love. And we love God because He first Loved us.

    The lost man does not love God. He has a cold, dead, unloving heart. The saved man, who has a new living heart of flesh, loves God because God first loved him. Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

    Lost sinners don't love God. That has been established over and over again from the bible.

    I know I love God because His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am His child. Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
     
    #89 TCassidy, Sep 13, 2018
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  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    A prophecy written to the nation of Israel foretelling how their nation will be restored.

    Again, a prophecy written to the nation of Israel foretelling how their nation will be restored.

    Ripped out of context by Calvinists to make their theology appear Biblical.




    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
    #90 InTheLight, Sep 13, 2018
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    If you can lay aside your Darbyite presuppositions for a minute you might notice that many of the OT prophecies were and are being fulfilled in the churches. This is one of the reasons I believe both Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology are wrong. Dispensationalism sees a complete separation between Israel and the church while Covenant Theology sees them being one and the same. The truth, as with most extremes, lies somewhere in between.

    And, again, the same answer.

    No, seen in the context that all the bible is the word of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction.

    The churches certainly enjoy many of the promises made to Israel. We, the churches are, after, engrafted into the Olive Tree which is Israel.
    Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
     
    #91 TCassidy, Sep 13, 2018
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  12. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "That is exactly what I have NOT done. utilyan said total depravity means every person is as bad as he can be. That is extremism. Total depravity means only that the total man, body, soul, and spirit, has been ruined by the fall. Lost people do good things every day. The bible even tells us that a lost man gives his children food when their are hungry."


    You say lost people do good things every day. Are they ACTUALLY GOOD THINGS?

    Folks here will say if someone with impure motives qualify their actions as "GOOD" when its clearly evil.


    Isaiah 5

    20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
    Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
    Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    Matthew 12

    33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


    I would say anything that doesn't have God as its source motivation is EVIL

    In a world where total means partial, all means some, and GOOD WORKS = FAKE GOOD WORKS.
    Yeah reprobates do "GOOD" works all the time.

    Is it really good at all? Does it have GOD as motivation?
     
    #92 utilyan, Sep 13, 2018
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, they are. Christ said so.

    Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
    12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
    13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Perhaps if you would spend more time reading and studying the bible for yourself and less time on internet forums, you would not make so many obvious blunders.
     
    #93 TCassidy, Sep 13, 2018
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  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I respect you as my teacher TCassidy. I hope you get in the rhythm of laughing at me, I don't want to upset you.
    I want to be able to describe down to the very details what you believe with your approval and no misrepresentation.

    "how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

    The proper response to Jesus in this verse is "not at all", right?

    It kinda gives me the impression evil folks can ask God for the holy spirit.

    Or maybe the evil folks who get the holy spirit and are saved, then can ask for the holy spirit.
     
    #94 utilyan, Sep 13, 2018
  15. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    And what about a parent which considers they want to be a good example for their children in being a good spiritual example thus they choose to repent and serve God closely. Can you prove that men haven't made decisions this way?

    But I asked you a clear question about decisions but you seek to swing it a different direction about the new heart. You don't seem to accept there's decisions about anything. That means NO REAL LOVE.

    Let's connect this to one of your next statements.

    OK you quote the scripture, "We love God because he first loved us" in 1 Jn 4:9-10 But why are you excluding a sinner who merely hears the gospel of what Jesus did on the cross and they can't love him for his self-sacrifice for them? OK they loved God because he first loved them and that demonstrates unconditional love in his doing so.

    Aren't you actually rejecting that God loves all people? So how can they possible love him because he first loved them? And consider this. Let me ask you the type of individual you really are.You say you love God because...because....he did something for you.You say because he loved you first. Let's bring in a Titanic analogy.

    You're in the water perishing. You're pulled into a life boat and boy you're thankful. You're appreciative because of what the one who saved you did. You find out later once you get to shore the captain of the Carpathia could have saved many more in fact he left most of them to die in the water. You find out that he just decided well that's enough...can you honestly say you'd have the same appreciation and LOVE that you had for him before?

    Is loving another merely the reflection on how it relates to you....personally....you don't consider that somewhat shallow? Shouldn't love of another be also linked to how the character treats ALL people? At least with me and I'm sure the same with yourself I hardly think you'd show appreciation to one who wasn't a loving character from an overall prospective.
     
    #95 Rockson, Sep 14, 2018
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I wouldn't call that a genuine conversion.



    Contrary to the destructive teachings otherwise. Love is not a decision.


    Esau have I hated.

    God isn't saving victims of a shipwreck. God is bringing certain and sure judgment. Christ provided a way of escape. The judgment that comes on one is just and deserved. The mercy that is shown another is completely and wholly according to God's grace.

    But your arguments merely boil down to, Why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will? That is ever and anon the cry of the noncalvinist.
     
    #96 Aaron, Sep 14, 2018
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  17. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    And if they claimed God didn't put this decision to serve God in them is that a genuine conversion too....or just a fake one?

    Well Aaron regardless of your claims to the contrary...it is. Choose this day whom you will serve Josh 24: 14-15......Save yourself from this corrupt generation. Acts 20:40

    Wasn't reported in Genesis to Esau such a thing. First mentioned in Malachi 1 about Esau's descendants and hate is used in a metonmy way.


    Well sorry Aaron I'd suggest you're running away from the question! The other poster claimed by quoting the scripture they love God because he first loved them and THAT scripture had to do with Jesus saving. 1 Jn 4:19 So the point was made you love God because of what he did for you and I asked is that the only thing you have in mind to define if you love another? How they treat you?

    Not a rather shallow way and reason to LOVE another character...if you get yours that's the only thing that matters? If the captain of the Carpathia (with Titanic) could have saved multitudes more and had the power to do so and just sailed away.....would you give him a standing ovation?

    "Hey well I'm saved! And as for all others who might complain well they're just selfish to do so! Yup part of that corrupt nature" you assume.     Nope that's not the God of the Bible. Everyone who calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved! Rom 10:13 Jesus doesn't just sail away from suffering, hopeless humanity not even giving them a choice.
     
    #97 Rockson, Sep 14, 2018
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  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You're error is in equating decisions with conversions. A conversion is a rebirth; a miraculous change in one's very nature. What role did you play in your first birth? Not having a role in your birth of a woman, you think you're given one in your birth of God?

    Nicodemus wouldn't have wondered if Christ had said, just decide to follow God and I'll do the rest.

    One either loves or not. Doing good to one's enemy while harboring (or even fighting with) ill will in your heart toward him is not love. I'm not saying love is mere affectionate feeling for its object, but it does not exist without it. And love, we're told, is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, which is given unto us. And the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by taking thought... ?

    Yeah. That's an old chestnut. The fact is that Esau, personally, was rejected, and Jacob was accepted while in the womb. And we're told the reason. There was nothing in Jacob that commended him above Esau. They were and are equal. It was that the purposes of God according to election might stand.

    LOL. Your point is that we love God because He acts in a lovely manner, and that his leaving some on a sinking ship for His own purposes would be an unlovely thing to do.

    But we're not on a ship. We're in a prison justly, abiding under the indignant eye of God, justly, with a just sentence of death on us for our pride, idolatries, murders and adulteries. God is not unjust, nor unlovely, to leave some to their deserved fate, and neither is He at fault for saving others.

    But let the law be your teacher on the subject. When Atonement was made for the elect, who was represented by the stones on the breast of the high priest? Where is Esau's stone? Egypt's?

    No Atonement was made for them to accept.
     
    #98 Aaron, Sep 16, 2018
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  19. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    That which is of flesh is flesh and that which is of spirit is spirit. Two different things. With the spiritual rebirth beforehand one can with the mind, think, reason form opinions and decide. A physical baby in the womb can do none of those things. You can't see that they're not totally different?

    I have no idea what point you're trying to make by saying this. Please expand.


    Nope you're failing to understand how biblical wording is used. God did not say in Gen 25 that he hated the individual Esau.....it was talking about the descendant line. Esau never even served Jacob from what we see in the scriptures in fact he became wealthy and Jacob blessed him with gifts and called himself his servant. You and other Calvinists really do need to read the following,

    He spent the night there, and from what he had with him he selected a gift for his brother Esau: two hundred female goats and twenty male goats, two hundred ewes and twenty rams, thirty female camels with their young, forty cows and ten bulls, and twenty female donkeys and ten male donkeys. He put them in the care of his servants, each herd by itself, and said to his servants, “Go ahead of me, and keep some space between the herds.”He instructed the one in the lead: “When my brother Esau meets you and asks, ‘Who do you belong to, and where are you going, and who owns all these animals in front of you?’ then you are to say, ‘They belong to your servant Jacob. They are a gift sent to my lord Esau, and he is coming behind us.’ ”He also instructed the second, the third and all the others who followed the herds: “You are to say the same thing to Esau when you meet him. And be sure to say, ‘Your servant Jacob is coming behind us.’ ” Gen 32:13-17

    So here you see Jacob wanted it acknowledged that he was Esau's servant. And now in chapter 33 below,

    Jacob looked up and there was Esau, coming with his four hundred men; so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel and the two female servants. He put the female servants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept. Then Esau looked up and saw the women and children. “Who are these with you?” he asked.

    Jacob answered, “They are the children God has graciously given your servant.”


    Then the female servants and their children approached and bowed down. Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down. Last of all came Joseph and Rachel, and they too bowed down.

    Notice what he said....YOUR SERVANT! When it says the the elder will serve the younger it wasn't talking about Esau the person but rather his decedents. Gen 25:26 EVEN SAYS...it's two nations in the womb.
     
    #99 Rockson, Sep 16, 2018
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  20. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Hold it now. That was the point of another Calvinist on here which who said we loved God because he first loved us. I Jn 4: 19-21 If that's not being lovely then what is it?

    I'd say my analogy was still a good one.

    But you have everyone in prison from the day they were born! And no way out of it unless they end up being one of the lucky ones and even that has nothing to do with them. You say some to their deserved fate? If one was born crippled and a decree came forth that everyone right now has to walk one mile and if not you'll be shot. Would you go right ahead and pull the trigger saying they deserved it because they couldn't walk a mile and never could?

    OK Aaron let's allow the law be my teacher. Exodus 12:38 says there was a mixed multitude that came out together with Israel...Ex 12:48 God made provision for non-Israelit's to become a part of the covenant through circumcision. Num 21:1 reveals Moses was married to a Cushite woman,Matt 1:5 Rahab became one of God's people and is in the linage of Jesus Christ....Matt 1:5 Ruth was a Moabite and likewise brought into Israel....the great, great grandmother of King David. Are we to believe the atonement wasn't for these people? Yes it was a covenant for Israel BUT foreigners were allowed into it.
     
    #100 Rockson, Sep 16, 2018
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