Pre Millennial is what is Biblical

Hello AGM,
What made Jerusalem on earth The Holy City, to begin with?
It was the place where God put His name and would meet sinners.
Since the cross, earthly Jerusalem can never again be the Holy City.
What makes it Holy? The once for all time sacrifice has been made. There is no longer an earthly Holy Place. It is now the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem that is the Holy place.

 

I was not trying to take on premillienial ideas as such. The OP asked for non premill persons to go step by step on what they see as biblical. I gave a short simple timeline. Nothing else needs to take place, just the gospel going worldwide.
No beasts, anti christ, temple rebuild, 70th week, great tribulation, red heifers, one world church, mark of the beast,

Things will move along with God being long suffering with the wicked until the last elect person is saved, then the end comes, the rapture on the last day.

We could still be the early church.

 

Ok, but why?

It seems most fitting to recognize that doctrine concerning the return of Christ, along with every other doctrine, drifted away from Christ until finally Augustine chunked it all because of his disappointment and fleshly desire.

Did not Christ state that in the last age (that which the church abides) scoffers would raise questioning the facts concerning the return of Christ?

Satanic influence desires to rob the hope and the validity of
Scripture promise. It seeks to downplay the judgment of God upon the world, and seeks to discredit the prophetic statements of the ancients (as the professor did by saying John was old and demented). Satan has offered the same to every age that he offered in the Eden and wilderness.

Did not Christ state that the drifting to apostasy would increase as the age was coming to a close?

What was sown by Augustine was heretical, and even mixing what little truth he might have put in his scheme does not quench the thirst error brings until all Scripture is held in question and suspicion.

 

When I was taught premill teaching I would have considered anything I am offering now as failing to prepare people for the "coming tribulation". I would have viewed my posts as perhaps someone who had turned from truth which I was taught was so plain.

I see it different now from studying both hebrews and revelation and seeing how they are inter-related.

 

Good questions AGM.

I can pick up any book by Ladd on the Kingdom and read and profit from things he taught.
I just have to translate it to a postmill format in that The Kingdom is now begun.
I am not doing it in a negative way, although if provoked I can go negative quite easily.

In a positive way, I am looking at verses that I think give direction to how we are to live as Christians here and now. here is an example;
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

I believe we are to live as restored Image -bearers now in this fallen world.
I believe we win In Christ and that the gospel will overcome the wickedness in this world by the fall.

verse 7-8 speak of our role in the Kingdom working to convert the heathen by the Gospel preaching, and new birth.

 

That is true as far as it goes, but there is more.

The holy city was holy because the tabernacle/temple abode there. The place the children if Israel could attend and address their issues before the veil. The veil was rent. We now can individually sand collectively ascend to the very presence of God for repose.

However, Christ according to the ancients ending with John were specific about the return, a temple that is nearly the size of the old city, and all that will happen as a result. Multiple prophecies, some repeated for clarification and adding more information. Such that even to this day it may seem unreasonable.

But just as the first coming seemed unreasonable to folks in that day, yet seen now as fulfilled, all that pertains to the second is just as valid, though many doubt and question, even suggesting more reasonable alternatives. What prophet lived to see his first coming? Did not the Lord state, “When I return, will I find faith on this earth?”

Probably not, it is a rhetorical question, the drifting always carries one away from the truth as Hebrews writes concerning even our salvation message is prone to drift. (Hebrews 2)

 

All Scripture interrelates.

The difficulty students of Scripture have always encountered is to not get steered off course by the interrelatedness.

For an example, you and I encounter a poster who clings to Matthew as an indicator of some self determination involving eternity.

But by ignoring that Matthew was written primarily to the Jews to bring understanding of the Kingship of Christ, that poster misses that the temple was the Jews only way to salvation. Being a good Jew was necessary, and keeping the law according to the precepts of the leaders was the only way (think woman at the well dialogue). The leaders could ban one from the temple, and to the Jew that was condemnation to a lost estate for eternity. The poster misses very badly the real truth being presented in favor of clinging to his own scheme.

The same comes with the topic of this thread.

By taking John, as exact as his statements in other writing are, and attempting to place (not that you do, I write of how others scheme) them into a chronology that denies the physical return and millennial reign is actually declarations of the Scriptures being invalid.

Just as this poster mentioned above invalidates by misapplication that which he drums, so do all schemes that do not present a glorious King with His Kingdom return for the final millennium of the physical existence of all heaven and earth. All passes away, all things are new. Even for the condemned already. For there is that new abode prepared for them, too.

 

The Ot prophecies of a temple are fulfilled in the building of the NT.Church.
passages such as this;
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I believe this is happening now in worship and prayer.

 

Again, the drifting, mentioned in Hebrews 2, though primarily about salvation is indicative of all areas the doctrines must be under pinned and penned in truth lest the storms of doubt that Augustine drowned in pull us in, too.

Did not Christ say, “...all authority is given me...”? Yet, his glory had yet to be restored, but would be at His ascension.

The question then comes to a matter of timing when “all things are put under Him”.

For John gives in detail that time. That time when all authority of heaven and earth submit, bow in submission, and He is recognized by all authorities of heaven and earth as The King, and not some bit player of historical note.

Then to both demonstrate the authority, not just over His brothers and sisters adopted into the family by God’s decree, but all of nature, that corrupted body of dishonor, that rebellious, that obstinate, that which would hide from Him in shame, ... but more to fulfill the final decrees of promise given by the ancients, God has decreed a millennium, then the end, the passing away of all things pertaining to all creation, that final judgment, with the revealing of the eternal death, and then that glorious place of new earth and heaven. That which we see but a glimpse. It has no temple, it has no sun. It is a place prepared for those who are His.

 

But we disagree, for the prophet gave the dimensions and particulars concerning that place. Such as has not occurred throughout history.

All nations are flowing to the existing Jerusalem, but that city is doomed. The prophets speak of a temple and city yet to come, that Jerusalem that because of the changes in the earth finds itself a sea port. The Dead Sea is no more and water flows out from the city.

Where is that city? Where the old lies in ruins. From the ashes will come that millennial reign. All nations must come, those that refuse are dealt with swiftly and harshly. He rules all nations without exception with a rod of iron.

No amount of prayers will cause the nations to wither from their current commitment to defy, for as you yourself teach, there is nothing in them to turn from wickedness.

When did folks have no power to suppress Him? In His physical presence.

When will all submit? In His presence.

When? Taking the passage as you posted adding some areas underlined:

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.​

This only happens during the millennium.

There is always a catalyst of change, especially concerning history.

From the time Cain committed murder until now, swords are created not destroyed unless recreated in more destructive use.

When then? When there is that presence of the Lord, after his return and the millennium is.

 

You have correctly identified a main issue.

 

"agedman,
[QUOTE]But we disagree, for the prophet gave the dimensions and particulars concerning that place. Such as has not occurred throughout history.[/QUOTE]

yes....we disagree. The Op asked some of us why we do not agree

I do not think it is the earthly Jerusalem in view

I agree, that is why it is happening now.

 

agedman,

]

I have not read Augustine on this.

Yes, that is why the gospel goes worldwide as the Kingdom spreads.

On the last day

The people are responsible to submit right now

 

The Rev. verses I cited are about Jesus. He caused them to be written.

 

But you need to understand Jesus' teaching on the kingdom, not the Pharisees, before trying to understand Revelation.

 

Jesus’s teaching was that which the earliest church fathers also taught.

It was not amillennial, or post millennial, and it was not Darby dispensational.

Would you not consider that any deviation from that handed down by the Apostles to those early followers and teachers is error? Is that not what Paul taught on discerning error?

 

Jesus taught the kingdom is spiritual. The pharisees taught a physical kingdom.

 

I do not understand what you mean when you say that the kingdom is spiritual.

 

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

 

1689, won't you been in Heaven in a new glorified body?