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Featured The Imaginary Covenant of Grace

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Sai, May 24, 2020.

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  1. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Yeshua died not only for the sins that were committed after His death, but also for the sins committed prior to His death. He died not just for the sins of New Testament saints, but also for the sins of Old Testament saints. God could have judged the Old Testament saints immediately , but He deferred their judgment until the cross. Then that judgment fell upon the Messiah as their substitute as well as the substitute for New Testament believers. In that way, their sins were removed.

    This is taught by Acts 17:30: The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commands men that they should all everywhere repent: ...

    He made the same point in Romans 3:25: ... whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; ... Again, he pointed out that the sins committed before the death of the Messiah could have been judged immediately , but they were deferred, temporarily overlooked or “passed over,” until the death of the Messiah as their substitute.

    In Hebrews 10:4, the writer said: For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.

    Animal sacrifice did not and could not remove the sins of the Old Testament saints; it merely covered them temporarily . Once the Messiah died, only then were their sins removed as well.


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    #81 Sai, May 29, 2020
  2. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    In other words, no one was ever justified in the world pre Christ’s death burial and resurrection. They were saved but had not been redeemed, they were not declared righteous by the law
     
    #82 Sai, May 29, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God remitted the OT saints sins though, as He did not hold them against them!
     
    #83 Yeshua1, May 29, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All of the lost sinners redeemed since time of Adam have been saved on the basis of the Cross of Christ, as none ever been justified by good works and efforts!
     
    #84 Yeshua1, May 29, 2020
  5. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Salvation for the Old Testament believers is not that God was big hearted enough to let them go. It wasn’t a mere pardon nor just forgiveness. There was a price and it was paid by the cross of Christ.


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    #85 Sai, May 29, 2020
  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Agreed to all of the above. And it was still salvation by faith and works under the law of Moses, like Moses and Paul and Christ said. Those who died under the law could not go to heaven because the blood of Christ was not shed, so they went underground into death (not hell) and awaited the blood. But they went into death rather than hell because of their works.
     
    #86 George Antonios, May 29, 2020
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Any sinner who ever has been saved was by the basis of the Cross of Christ!
     
    #87 Yeshua1, May 30, 2020
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    they went down to Sheol, and were chosen out by God and redeemed on the basis of the Messiah to yet come, and they placed trust and faith in God promises!
     
    #88 Yeshua1, May 30, 2020
  9. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    The question is on what basis did they go to Abraham's bosom rather than hell?
    Please don't say "by looking forward to the cross" if you can't prove that with scripture and explain why none of the apostles had any idea about the cross and why Peter said in his epistle that neither did the prophets understand all this business about a suffering Messiah and why none of the Jews knew anything about any Messiah dying to begin with.
    Again, deal with all the above in your answer.
    Just repeating things without dealing with all verses on the issue is not helpful to anyone.
    Thanks.
     
    #89 George Antonios, May 31, 2020
  10. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    When Cain was born Eve literally said behold I have given birth to the God man. For Adam and those alive in his day I would say that believing in the provisions of the covenant made with Adam was “saving faith.”
     
    #90 Sai, May 31, 2020
  11. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    The requirement of faith for Abraham's salvation was to believe God for a son. He did and he was spiritually born again as a result. From then on since God audibly spoke to Abraham in some fashion, it was Abraham's obligation to hear and obey. Abe could have disobeyed and he still would have remained God's chosen person to bring Messiah thru but he didn't, he listened and obeyed. The focus was on Abe's understanding of the goodness of God and the faithfulness of God to complete all that God had promised Abe. He promised a son. He promised that a great nation would come from that son. Thus Abe fully believed God would raise his some from death in order to fulfill God's oath made to him.
     
    #91 Sai, May 31, 2020
  12. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Bump


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    #92 Sai, Jun 1, 2020
  13. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Let's have the Bible define who the promise is for and who God determines as the Israel of God.

    Romans 9:4-8 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

    The New Covenant is for the children of the promise, counted as children of God...the Israel of God.
     
    #93 Particular, Jun 2, 2020
  14. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    God gave Abraham the faith to believe when God made a covenant with himself by walking between the heifer that had been cut in two.
    Abraham never conjured faith from his own willpower. In fact we see Abram making faithless decision after faithless decision until God walks through the sacrifice and vows to Abraham that He would provide the Redeemer through Abraham.
     
    #94 Particular, Jun 2, 2020
  15. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    the Israel of God are Jews in the FLESH who believe and then are also Jews in the SPIRIT.
    Just because Paul extracts a spiritual principle and uses it to illustrate that Gentiles can also be children of God in the SPIRIT does not cancel out the very baseline which Paul uses to spring forth from, that the covenants of God were intended to those who are PHYSICAL Jews as well as being SPIRITUAL ones. That's the true Israel of God.
    What reformed theologians have done is use a secondary application to Gentiles to eliminate the primary application to believing Jews. And THAT is Roman Catholic theology. You brethren have not gone far enough in your reformation.
     
    #95 George Antonios, Jun 2, 2020
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  16. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Well, he left Ur when told. Was that the beginning of faith?
     
    #96 Sai, Jun 2, 2020
  17. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    I can understand how you believe that. You’re wrong


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    #97 Sai, Jun 2, 2020
  18. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Not if I take the covenants seriously as well as the prophesies of the promised one.
    If I have a dispensational theology that misunderstands the covenants of God, I will think Israel is national rather than spiritual. I'm not a dispensationalist.
     
    #98 Particular, Jun 2, 2020
  19. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    He hesitated for awhile. Once he got to Canaan he lied about his wife, he got another woman pregnant and he struggled to believe God would provide through Sarai.
    Don't get me wrong, in my flesh I would do no better. But, God profoundly changed Abram after God walked through the split sacrifices and swore an oath to Abram. It is after that moment when Abraham believes God will protect Isaac...even though God called him to slay Isaac. In this we see a profound change in Abraham compared to earlier events.

    God is the giver of the gift of faith. Abram never generated faith from his fleshly will.
     
    #99 Particular, Jun 2, 2020
  20. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Nope, not according to Paul. That passage in Romans 9 is clear. The children of the promise are from every nation, tribe and tongue.
     
    #100 Particular, Jun 2, 2020
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