The Imaginary Covenant of Grace

[Sai]

Only the Bible never actually says that. Under the law of Moses, salvation was by faith and works, as often stated in scripture.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is NOT of faith: but, The man that DOETH them shall live in them.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which DOETH those things shall live by them.

And indeed:
Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Psa 106:30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

However, in the church age of grace, the works of the law are no more accepted of God as a basis of justification.

Rom 3:21 BUT NOW [i.e. not before] the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets [the law prophesied and typified salvation by grace, but it did not offer salvation by grace];

This is partly due to the fact that New Testament salvation includes elements (like regeneration, adoption, etc) which were not part of salvation under Moses' law, and which elements, now bundled-up with salvation, can never be attained by the works of the law. In the tribulation, and in the millennial kingdom, salvation will once again be obtained as it was under the law of Moses.

I realize this is highly contentious, and it took me a while to digest. Hopefully we can discuss it with scriptures over time.

To be clear, your question is very pertinent and difficult to answer for those who ascribe to the "salvation was always by grace through faith" creed yet also distinguish between a covenant of the law and then a covenant of grace. So what I'm saying is that you are at least trying to be internally consistent.

Yeshua died not only for the sins that were committed after His death, but also for the sins committed prior to His death. He died not just for the sins of New Testament saints, but also for the sins of Old Testament saints. God could have judged the Old Testament saints immediately , but He deferred their judgment until the cross. Then that judgment fell upon the Messiah as their substitute as well as the substitute for New Testament believers. In that way, their sins were removed.

This is taught by Acts 17:30: The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commands men that they should all everywhere repent: ...

He made the same point in Romans 3:25: ... whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; ... Again, he pointed out that the sins committed before the death of the Messiah could have been judged immediately , but they were deferred, temporarily overlooked or “passed over,” until the death of the Messiah as their substitute.

In Hebrews 10:4, the writer said: For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.

Animal sacrifice did not and could not remove the sins of the Old Testament saints; it merely covered them temporarily . Once the Messiah died, only then were their sins removed as well.


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[Sai]

Yeshua died not only for the sins that were committed after His death, but also for the sins committed prior to His death. He died not just for the sins of New Testament saints, but also for the sins of Old Testament saints. God could have judged the Old Testament saints immediately , but He deferred their judgment until the cross. Then that judgment fell upon the Messiah as their substitute as well as the substitute for New Testament believers. In that way, their sins were removed.

This is taught by Acts 17:30: The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commands men that they should all everywhere repent: ...

He made the same point in Romans 3:25: ... whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; ... Again, he pointed out that the sins committed before the death of the Messiah could have been judged immediately , but they were deferred, temporarily overlooked or “passed over,” until the death of the Messiah as their substitute.

In Hebrews 10:4, the writer said: For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.

Animal sacrifice did not and could not remove the sins of the Old Testament saints; it merely covered them temporarily . Once the Messiah died, only then were their sins removed as well.


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In other words, no one was ever justified in the world pre Christ’s death burial and resurrection. They were saved but had not been redeemed, they were not declared righteous by the law

 

[Yeshua1]

In other words, no one was ever justified in the world pre Christ’s death burial and resurrection. They were saved but had not been redeemed, they were not declared righteous by the law

God remitted the OT saints sins though, as He did not hold them against them!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua died not only for the sins that were committed after His death, but also for the sins committed prior to His death. He died not just for the sins of New Testament saints, but also for the sins of Old Testament saints. God could have judged the Old Testament saints immediately , but He deferred their judgment until the cross. Then that judgment fell upon the Messiah as their substitute as well as the substitute for New Testament believers. In that way, their sins were removed.

This is taught by Acts 17:30: The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commands men that they should all everywhere repent: ...

He made the same point in Romans 3:25: ... whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; ... Again, he pointed out that the sins committed before the death of the Messiah could have been judged immediately , but they were deferred, temporarily overlooked or “passed over,” until the death of the Messiah as their substitute.

In Hebrews 10:4, the writer said: For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.

Animal sacrifice did not and could not remove the sins of the Old Testament saints; it merely covered them temporarily . Once the Messiah died, only then were their sins removed as well.


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All of the lost sinners redeemed since time of Adam have been saved on the basis of the Cross of Christ, as none ever been justified by good works and efforts!

 

[Sai]

God remitted the OT saints sins though, as He did not hold them against them!

Salvation for the Old Testament believers is not that God was big hearted enough to let them go. It wasn’t a mere pardon nor just forgiveness. There was a price and it was paid by the cross of Christ.


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[George Antonios]

Yeshua died not only for the sins that were committed after His death, but also for the sins committed prior to His death. He died not just for the sins of New Testament saints, but also for the sins of Old Testament saints. God could have judged the Old Testament saints immediately , but He deferred their judgment until the cross. Then that judgment fell upon the Messiah as their substitute as well as the substitute for New Testament believers. In that way, their sins were removed.

This is taught by Acts 17:30: The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commands men that they should all everywhere repent: ...

He made the same point in Romans 3:25: ... whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; ... Again, he pointed out that the sins committed before the death of the Messiah could have been judged immediately , but they were deferred, temporarily overlooked or “passed over,” until the death of the Messiah as their substitute.

In Hebrews 10:4, the writer said: For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.

Animal sacrifice did not and could not remove the sins of the Old Testament saints; it merely covered them temporarily . Once the Messiah died, only then were their sins removed as well.


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Agreed to all of the above. And it was still salvation by faith and works under the law of Moses, like Moses and Paul and Christ said. Those who died under the law could not go to heaven because the blood of Christ was not shed, so they went underground into death (not hell) and awaited the blood. But they went into death rather than hell because of their works.

 

[Yeshua1]

Salvation for the Old Testament believers is not that God was big hearted enough to let them go. It wasn’t a mere pardon nor just forgiveness. There was a price and it was paid by the cross of Christ.


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Any sinner who ever has been saved was by the basis of the Cross of Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Agreed to all of the above. And it was still salvation by faith and works under the law of Moses, like Moses and Paul and Christ said. Those who died under the law could not go to heaven because the blood of Christ was not shed, so they went underground into death (not hell) and awaited the blood. But they went into death rather than hell because of their works.

they went down to Sheol, and were chosen out by God and redeemed on the basis of the Messiah to yet come, and they placed trust and faith in God promises!

 

[George Antonios]

they went down to Sheol, and were chosen out by God and redeemed on the basis of the Messiah to yet come, and they placed trust and faith in God promises!

The question is on what basis did they go to Abraham's bosom rather than hell?
Please don't say "by looking forward to the cross" if you can't prove that with scripture and explain why none of the apostles had any idea about the cross and why Peter said in his epistle that neither did the prophets understand all this business about a suffering Messiah and why none of the Jews knew anything about any Messiah dying to begin with.
Again, deal with all the above in your answer.
Just repeating things without dealing with all verses on the issue is not helpful to anyone.
Thanks.

 

[Sai]

The question is on what basis did they go to Abraham's bosom rather than hell?
Please don't say "by looking forward to the cross" if you can't prove that with scripture and explain why none of the apostles had any idea about the cross and why Peter said in his epistle that neither did the prophets understand all this business about a suffering Messiah and why none of the Jews knew anything about any Messiah dying to begin with.
Again, deal with all the above in your answer.
Just repeating things without dealing with all verses on the issue is not helpful to anyone.
Thanks.

When Cain was born Eve literally said behold I have given birth to the God man. For Adam and those alive in his day I would say that believing in the provisions of the covenant made with Adam was “saving faith.”

 

[Sai]

The requirement of faith for Abraham's salvation was to believe God for a son. He did and he was spiritually born again as a result. From then on since God audibly spoke to Abraham in some fashion, it was Abraham's obligation to hear and obey. Abe could have disobeyed and he still would have remained God's chosen person to bring Messiah thru but he didn't, he listened and obeyed. The focus was on Abe's understanding of the goodness of God and the faithfulness of God to complete all that God had promised Abe. He promised a son. He promised that a great nation would come from that son. Thus Abe fully believed God would raise his some from death in order to fulfill God's oath made to him.

 

[Sai]

The requirement of faith for Abraham's salvation was to believe God for a son. He did and he was spiritually born again as a result. From then on since God audibly spoke to Abraham in some fashion, it was Abraham's obligation to hear and obey. Abe could have disobeyed and he still would have remained God's chosen person to bring Messiah thru but he didn't, he listened and obeyed. The focus was on Abe's understanding of the goodness of God and the faithfulness of God to complete all that God had promised Abe. He promised a son. He promised that a great nation would come from that son. Thus Abe fully believed God would raise his some from death in order to fulfill God's oath made to him.

Bump


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[Particular]

Jeremiah 31:31 is a New Covenant made with Israel. It is not a new covenant of grace over and against an old covenant of works. Don’t get it twisted friends


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Let's have the Bible define who the promise is for and who God determines as the Israel of God.

Romans 9:4-8 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

The New Covenant is for the children of the promise, counted as children of God...the Israel of God.

 

[Particular]

The requirement of faith for Abraham's salvation was to believe God for a son. He did and he was spiritually born again as a result. From then on since God audibly spoke to Abraham in some fashion, it was Abraham's obligation to hear and obey. Abe could have disobeyed and he still would have remained God's chosen person to bring Messiah thru but he didn't, he listened and obeyed. The focus was on Abe's understanding of the goodness of God and the faithfulness of God to complete all that God had promised Abe. He promised a son. He promised that a great nation would come from that son. Thus Abe fully believed God would raise his some from death in order to fulfill God's oath made to him.

God gave Abraham the faith to believe when God made a covenant with himself by walking between the heifer that had been cut in two.
Abraham never conjured faith from his own willpower. In fact we see Abram making faithless decision after faithless decision until God walks through the sacrifice and vows to Abraham that He would provide the Redeemer through Abraham.

 

[George Antonios]

Let's have the Bible define who the promise is for and who God determines as the Israel of God.

Romans 9:4-8 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

The New Covenant is for the children of the promise, counted as children of God...the Israel of God.

the Israel of God are Jews in the FLESH who believe and then are also Jews in the SPIRIT.
Just because Paul extracts a spiritual principle and uses it to illustrate that Gentiles can also be children of God in the SPIRIT does not cancel out the very baseline which Paul uses to spring forth from, that the covenants of God were intended to those who are PHYSICAL Jews as well as being SPIRITUAL ones. That's the true Israel of God.
What reformed theologians have done is use a secondary application to Gentiles to eliminate the primary application to believing Jews. And THAT is Roman Catholic theology. You brethren have not gone far enough in your reformation.

 

[Sai]

God gave Abraham the faith to believe when God made a covenant with himself by walking between the heifer that had been cut in two.
Abraham never conjured faith from his own willpower. In fact we see Abram making faithless decision after faithless decision until God walks through the sacrifice and vows to Abraham that He would provide the Redeemer through Abraham.

Well, he left Ur when told. Was that the beginning of faith?

 

[Sai]

Let's have the Bible define who the promise is for and who God determines as the Israel of God.

Romans 9:4-8 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

The New Covenant is for the children of the promise, counted as children of God...the Israel of God.

I can understand how you believe that. You’re wrong


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[Particular]

I can understand how you believe that. You’re wrong


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Not if I take the covenants seriously as well as the prophesies of the promised one.
If I have a dispensational theology that misunderstands the covenants of God, I will think Israel is national rather than spiritual. I'm not a dispensationalist.

 

[Particular]

Well, he left Ur when told. Was that the beginning of faith?

He hesitated for awhile. Once he got to Canaan he lied about his wife, he got another woman pregnant and he struggled to believe God would provide through Sarai.
Don't get me wrong, in my flesh I would do no better. But, God profoundly changed Abram after God walked through the split sacrifices and swore an oath to Abram. It is after that moment when Abraham believes God will protect Isaac...even though God called him to slay Isaac. In this we see a profound change in Abraham compared to earlier events.

God is the giver of the gift of faith. Abram never generated faith from his fleshly will.

 

[Particular]

the Israel of God are Jews in the FLESH who believe and then are also Jews in the SPIRIT.
Just because Paul extracts a spiritual principle and uses it to illustrate that Gentiles can also be children of God in the SPIRIT does not cancel out the very baseline which Paul uses to spring forth from, that the covenants of God were intended to those who are PHYSICAL Jews as well as being SPIRITUAL ones. That's the true Israel of God.
What reformed theologians have done is use a secondary application to Gentiles to eliminate the primary application to believing Jews. And THAT is Roman Catholic theology. You brethren have not gone far enough in your reformation.

Nope, not according to Paul. That passage in Romans 9 is clear. The children of the promise are from every nation, tribe and tongue.