Featured Does God Choose Man or Does Man Choose God - Part 2

Thank you Glen (tyndale) for kind words. You presented excellent verses which debated many times on Christian forums.


Many think that word "predetermine" means that GOD chose some people to a certain fate, to be Christian for example, so He can save them. That of course would be unfair to others who are not chosen and "predetermined" for better destiny.


I check some comments and explanations concerning word " predetermined," and it explained differently by different people.


New Testament translated from Greek, and many Biblical copies had been made by different Christian denominations, and each denomination translated these verse differently, and some replaced word "predetermine" with a word "foreseen."


Indeed, if we are created with the free will and responsible for our own destiny, will then it be justly to "predetermine" some people to one fate and others to another fate, overriding their free will?


So I think the word "foreseen" more likely fits to the passages you presented, and it will mean that those whom He foreseen to be a true Christians according to their will, then He will save them for Himself.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, . . ." Hear this, the chosing in sanctification of the Spirit goes before the calling and the calling comes before belief of the truth.

 

1 Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ."

 

I know its moving when we hear of a child in Africa who has been adopted by an American celebrity. I know your thinking this when your reading the bible about adoption . You thinking like a western man . However the bible is different to American thinking . . I am a child of God through the new birth , why are you not ?
And how does it feel to already have your new body ( THE ADOPTION, ) ahead of everyone else ?

 

Individual People who looked at the Serpe

when person who was from a chosen nation looked he was healed ,and when a person from a chosen nation did not look he died .

 

like I said God healed the people who were from a chosen nation ( kinda irrelevant to the point Jesus is making , unless you believe God only saves Jews ) when an individual looked he was healed . When a person did not look he died .

 

When and what were they elected for and to do ? Does it say before they existed ? could the verses following be a clue to the context . Do you only read one verse from each book ?

 

. Scripture is from God and God cannot lie. (2 Tim. 3:16; Tit. 1:2)

2. Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

6. There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

7. Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

9. Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

10. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

11. Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

12. Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

13. The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

14. The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

15. What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

16. Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

17. Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

18. There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

19. There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

20. Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

21. Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

22. Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

23. ”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.

24. Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)

25. Monergism/Synergism is a false dichotomy invented in the 1890s. Calvinists are synergists based on their own definitions of these terms.

26. God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)

27. Free gift unto justification of life to all men must be received. It’s not “universalism” unless irresistible grace supplants the biblical requirement to receive. (Rom. 5:11-18; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

28. “Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

29. Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)

30. Free will or lack thereof (or lack of a type of it, such as libertarian) is not a proper interpretive pre-consideration. Scriptural authority is the one and only concern, irrespective of the implications to man’s will. (Pro. 30:5)

31. Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

32. Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.

33. Israel is who’s being hardened in Romans 9. The recipients of mercy are identified in Romans 11:32.

34. The Holy Spirit is the only member of the trinity who doesn’t draw in the New Testament. (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)

35. God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism

 

. Scripture is from God and God cannot lie. (2 Tim. 3:16; Tit. 1:2)

2. Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

6. There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

7. Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

9. Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

10. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

11. Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

12. Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

13. The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

14. The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

15. What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

16. Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

17. Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

18. There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

19. There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

20. Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

21. Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

22. Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

23. ”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.

24. Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)

25. Monergism/Synergism is a false dichotomy invented in the 1890s. Calvinists are synergists based on their own definitions of these terms.

26. God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)

27. Free gift unto justification of life to all men must be received. It’s not “universalism” unless irresistible grace supplants the biblical requirement to receive. (Rom. 5:11-18; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

28. “Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

29. Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)

30. Free will or lack thereof (or lack of a type of it, such as libertarian) is not a proper interpretive pre-consideration. Scriptural authority is the one and only concern, irrespective of the implications to man’s will. (Pro. 30:5)

31. Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

32. Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.

33. Israel is who’s being hardened in Romans 9. The recipients of mercy are identified in Romans 11:32.

34. The Holy Spirit is the only member of the trinity who doesn’t draw in the New Testament. (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)

35. God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism

 

You may not have heard of Calvin early on but oddly you talk just like a Calvernist. Its almost word for word the same as every other Calvernist I've spoken to .

 

No, what's ridiculous is your not believing God's word that says anyone can be saved. Who, among the living, does "whoever" leave out ???????

 

The context is service, not salvation, as with other such Bible texts:

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

And in context mine own are the pennies, i.e. the rewards, not the people.

But who cares about context when one has a Gnostic philosophical framework to push through?!

 

Your not conformed till the adoption. unless your already walking through walls ?

 

is it because your stuck with the Calvernist interpretation of Ephesians 1.4and 5 ?

 

How can the culmination not be the point?