Does God Choose Man or Does Man Choose God - Part 2

[AustinC]

your not too bright are you . Could you read romans 8.23 and tell me when the adoption is please ... Then ask when you were in Him ? remembering it doesn't say 'to be in him ' And read chosen for what ? it's not to be saved is it ?

Barry, we have gone over this and the text proves your selected hearing to be wrong.

Romans 8:9-11,14-17,19-24
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. For the [/b][r]creation[/r] waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God[/b]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we [r]were[/r] saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

The entire passage is focused on our present position and how creation longs for the corruption in this world to end and our perfect bodies to replace our corrupt bodies. Creation waits eagerly to see this.
Yet before this we already have received the Spirit of adoption. This already has happened.

Let me state it this way.

A family in our church adopted two children from Bulgaria. Upon the signing of the papers, the children were officially adopted. They were their children. But, they had not yet been to the orphanage. That transaction of the earlier adoption took place later and it was then when the children flew back to the US.

That's what Paul is saying in Romans 8. Our adoption has already happened, but our homecoming for the adoption will happen in the future.

You want to make the adoption be in the future, but that is false. The adoption has already happened. We just haven't been brought home yet, which is what the creation is looking forward to happening.

 

[AustinC]

when they looked at the serpent in the wilderness and were immediately healed . Did they heal themselves or did God cause the healing ? If you say of course after they looked it was God that healed them and saved them.Dont be so silly of course they didn't save themselves or cause the venom to stop killing them , it was God that did it " . God provided the means . Well why do you believe were saving ourselves by believing the Gospel . ? it wasn't there own will or there own ' works ' ( im pretty sure you could look on the sabbath ) that healed themselves , it was Gods power that stopped that venom from killing them after the bite . But God commanded them to look . The same can be applied to the Gospel ( just as Jesus did in John 3 ) We are commanded to believe the Gospel. Then God saves .You say ' they can't believe because of the fall ' why ? folks are believing the Quran, the book of mormon , Catholicism , the new world translation . They can't believe Gods word ? they can believe in all manner of things but they CANT respond positively to Gods revelation and the Holy Spirit wrought Gospel ? why would you believe such nonsense ? why do you speak like a Calvernist? what ' stuff ' have you absorbed along with the bible?

We're the pagan nation's healed or was the healing for the chosen people of Israel?

 

[AustinC]

Did they heal themselves in the wilderness after they looked at the bronze serpent? or did God cause the healing ?

We're the non chosen nation's all around healed, or just the chosen people?

 

[Alex2165]

You forgot one created for Salvation... Jesus Christ 100%... He stood in our room and stead and did what we could NEVER do and appeased an offended God on our behalf... That's what I've been telling everyone since I've been here... You my dear friend, seeking Christ, have found the true meaning of Sovereign Grace... Hold on to it, others will tell you are wrong... Brother Glen

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Btw... The chicken came first, you need a full grown chicken to get an egg!

Thank you Glen (tyndale) for kind words. You presented excellent verses which debated many times on Christian forums.


Many think that word "predetermine" means that GOD chose some people to a certain fate, to be Christian for example, so He can save them. That of course would be unfair to others who are not chosen and "predetermined" for better destiny.


I check some comments and explanations concerning word " predetermined," and it explained differently by different people.


New Testament translated from Greek, and many Biblical copies had been made by different Christian denominations, and each denomination translated these verse differently, and some replaced word "predetermine" with a word "foreseen."


Indeed, if we are created with the free will and responsible for our own destiny, will then it be justly to "predetermine" some people to one fate and others to another fate, overriding their free will?


So I think the word "foreseen" more likely fits to the passages you presented, and it will mean that those whom He foreseen to be a true Christians according to their will, then He will save them for Himself.

 

[37818]

One becomes elect after believing.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, . . ." Hear this, the chosing in sanctification of the Spirit goes before the calling and the calling comes before belief of the truth.

 

[37818]

Choose man to do what ? Choose man for what ?
God chose to save those that believe .
Chosen is ALWAYS to do or for something .

1 Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ."

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, we have gone over this and the text proves your selected hearing to be wrong.

Romans 8:9-11,14-17,19-24
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. For the [/b][r]creation[/r] waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God[/b]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we [r]were[/r] saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

The entire passage is focused on our present position and how creation longs for the corruption in this world to end and our perfect bodies to replace our corrupt bodies. Creation waits eagerly to see this.
Yet before this we already have received the Spirit of adoption. This already has happened.

Let me state it this way.

A family in our church adopted two children from Bulgaria. Upon the signing of the papers, the children were officially adopted. They were their children. But, they had not yet been to the orphanage. That transaction of the earlier adoption took place later and it was then when the children flew back to the US.

That's what Paul is saying in Romans 8. Our adoption has already happened, but our homecoming for the adoption will happen in the future.

You want to make the adoption be in the future, but that is false. The adoption has already happened. We just haven't been brought home yet, which is what the creation is looking forward to happening.

I know its moving when we hear of a child in Africa who has been adopted by an American celebrity. I know your thinking this when your reading the bible about adoption . You thinking like a western man . However the bible is different to American thinking . . I am a child of God through the new birth , why are you not ?
And how does it feel to already have your new body ( THE ADOPTION, ) ahead of everyone else ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

We're the pagan nation's healed or was the healing for the chosen people of Israel?

Individual People who looked at the Serpe

We're the pagan nation's healed or was the healing for the chosen people of Israel?

when person who was from a chosen nation looked he was healed ,and when a person from a chosen nation did not look he died .

 

[Barry Johnson]

We're the non chosen nation's all around healed, or just the chosen people?

like I said God healed the people who were from a chosen nation ( kinda irrelevant to the point Jesus is making , unless you believe God only saves Jews ) when an individual looked he was healed . When a person did not look he died .

 

[Barry Johnson]

1 Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ."

When and what were they elected for and to do ? Does it say before they existed ? could the verses following be a clue to the context . Do you only read one verse from each book ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Nothing but the Bible, Barry.

In fact, I'd never even heard of John Calvin or Augustine of Hippo before I saw the facts of God's choosing sinners to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ) in the Bible for myself.


Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

"..as many as were ordained to eternal life..."


May God bless you, Barry.
I'm going to make this my final reply to you in this thread.

I'm all typed out.
Have a good evening.

. Scripture is from God and God cannot lie. (2 Tim. 3:16; Tit. 1:2)

2. Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

6. There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

7. Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

9. Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

10. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

11. Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

12. Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

13. The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

14. The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

15. What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

16. Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

17. Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

18. There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

19. There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

20. Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

21. Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

22. Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

23. ”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.

24. Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)

25. Monergism/Synergism is a false dichotomy invented in the 1890s. Calvinists are synergists based on their own definitions of these terms.

26. God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)

27. Free gift unto justification of life to all men must be received. It’s not “universalism” unless irresistible grace supplants the biblical requirement to receive. (Rom. 5:11-18; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

28. “Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

29. Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)

30. Free will or lack thereof (or lack of a type of it, such as libertarian) is not a proper interpretive pre-consideration. Scriptural authority is the one and only concern, irrespective of the implications to man’s will. (Pro. 30:5)

31. Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

32. Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.

33. Israel is who’s being hardened in Romans 9. The recipients of mercy are identified in Romans 11:32.

34. The Holy Spirit is the only member of the trinity who doesn’t draw in the New Testament. (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)

35. God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism

 

[Barry Johnson]

I know its moving when we hear of a child in Africa who has been adopted by an American celebrity. I know your thinking this when your reading the bible about adoption . You thinking like a western man . However the bible is different to American thinking . . I am a child of God through the new birth , why are you not ?
And how does it feel to already have your new body ( THE ADOPTION, ) ahead of everyone else ?

Barry, we have gone over this and the text proves your selected hearing to be wrong.

Romans 8:9-11,14-17,19-24
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. For the [/b][r]creation[/r] waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God[/b]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we [r]were[/r] saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

The entire passage is focused on our present position and how creation longs for the corruption in this world to end and our perfect bodies to replace our corrupt bodies. Creation waits eagerly to see this.
Yet before this we already have received the Spirit of adoption. This already has happened.

Let me state it this way.

A family in our church adopted two children from Bulgaria. Upon the signing of the papers, the children were officially adopted. They were their children. But, they had not yet been to the orphanage. That transaction of the earlier adoption took place later and it was then when the children flew back to the US.

That's what Paul is saying in Romans 8. Our adoption has already happened, but our homecoming for the adoption will happen in the future.

You want to make the adoption be in the future, but that is false. The adoption has already happened. We just haven't been brought home yet, which is what the creation is looking forward to happening.

. Scripture is from God and God cannot lie. (2 Tim. 3:16; Tit. 1:2)

2. Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

6. There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

7. Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

9. Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

10. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

11. Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

12. Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

13. The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

14. The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

15. What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

16. Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

17. Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

18. There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

19. There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

20. Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

21. Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

22. Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

23. ”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.

24. Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)

25. Monergism/Synergism is a false dichotomy invented in the 1890s. Calvinists are synergists based on their own definitions of these terms.

26. God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)

27. Free gift unto justification of life to all men must be received. It’s not “universalism” unless irresistible grace supplants the biblical requirement to receive. (Rom. 5:11-18; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

28. “Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

29. Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)

30. Free will or lack thereof (or lack of a type of it, such as libertarian) is not a proper interpretive pre-consideration. Scriptural authority is the one and only concern, irrespective of the implications to man’s will. (Pro. 30:5)

31. Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

32. Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.

33. Israel is who’s being hardened in Romans 9. The recipients of mercy are identified in Romans 11:32.

34. The Holy Spirit is the only member of the trinity who doesn’t draw in the New Testament. (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)

35. God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism

 

[Barry Johnson]

Nothing but the Bible, Barry.

In fact, I'd never even heard of John Calvin or Augustine of Hippo before I saw the facts of God's choosing sinners to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ) in the Bible for myself.


Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

"..as many as were ordained to eternal life..."


May God bless you, Barry.
I'm going to make this my final reply to you in this thread.

I'm all typed out.
Have a good evening.

You may not have heard of Calvin early on but oddly you talk just like a Calvernist. Its almost word for word the same as every other Calvernist I've spoken to .

 

[robycop3]

That doesn't even make sense.
By human effort and willpower to believe (doing it all yourself) you cause God to elect you.
That's utterly ridiculous.

No, what's ridiculous is your not believing God's word that says anyone can be saved. Who, among the living, does "whoever" leave out ???????

 

[George Antonios]

Matthew 20:1-15 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denariusa day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’

Who chose what?

Notice the owner of the vineyard chooses the workers and chooses what to pay them. Also, notice that the owner asks a very important question, Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?

The context is service, not salvation, as with other such Bible texts:

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

And in context mine own are the pennies, i.e. the rewards, not the people.

But who cares about context when one has a Gnostic philosophical framework to push through?!

 

[Barry Johnson]

predestined to BE conformed ..We are not conformed at conversion.

Your not conformed till the adoption. unless your already walking through walls ?

 

[AustinC]

I know its moving when we hear of a child in Africa who has been adopted by an American celebrity. I know your thinking this when your reading the bible about adoption . You thinking like a western man . However the bible is different to American thinking . . I am a child of God through the new birth , why are you not ?
And how does it feel to already have your new body ( THE ADOPTION, ) ahead of everyone else ?

The new body is not the point of adoption, it is the culmination of the adoption as Romans 8 expresses. We will be in disagreement.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The new body is not the point of adoption, it is the culmination of the adoption as Romans 8 expresses. We will be in disagreement.

is it because your stuck with the Calvernist interpretation of Ephesians 1.4and 5 ?

 

[George Antonios]

The new body is not the point of adoption, it is the culmination of the adoption as Romans 8 expresses. We will be in disagreement.

How can the culmination not be the point?

 

[AustinC]

The context is service, not salvation, as with other such Bible texts:

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

And in context mine own are the pennies, i.e. the rewards, not the people.

But who cares about context when one has a Gnostic philosophical framework to push through?!

You have a gnostic theology?