1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured How 2 Cor 5:19 teaches limited atonement !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Mar 21, 2024.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 5 of 10
  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am asking about the passages you deny (for example, Paul stating that we were once under condemnation but in Christ we are no longer under condemnation).

    Your answer is simply that you ignore passages that are at odds with your ideas.

    BUT you still have not adequately addressed God reconciling the World IN CHRIST, not counting man's sins against them with the fact that this is the reason Paul gives that men need to be reconciled to God and the ministry of reconciliation wherebt we plead with men to be reconciled.

    Instead you cherry pick words and use verses we all agree on to "prove" your ideas.

    We know Jesus didn't pray for the world. We know that God reconciling the world to Himself doesn't mean men are reconciled as the passage states this. We know we were condemned but in Christ we are no longer under condemnation.

    You don't know that. But those of us who consider all of Scripture valid do.
     
    #81 JonC, Mar 26, 2024
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In John 3:16, no....of course not (because many of those rejected Him for their deeds were evil). This is apparent earlier in John.

    God loved the world by sending His Son.
    Those to whom Jesus came rejected Him.
     
    #82 JonC, Mar 26, 2024
  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2880662, member: 16797"]Actually you did not. All you have done is quote the scripture and tell us we do not know what it says. You pull verses out of context or grab verses that have the same word in them and think that supports your view.

    The bible does not support your errant view BF.[/QUOTE]
    Yes I did
     
    #83 Brightfame52, Mar 26, 2024
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have told you over and over and over, The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is the elect. It doesnt have any sins charged to it, its not condemned. God doesnt condemn His elect Rom 8:33

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    Plus common reason should tell you that if one world doesnt have sin charged to it, and another world does 1 Cor 11:32 then they are not the same world. One is Elect, one is not DUH
     
    #84 Brightfame52, Mar 26, 2024
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @JonC

    I disagree, for Gods Love is exclusively in Christ. Rom 8:39

    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Now in the original the Love of God has the definite article

    ὔτε ὕψωμα οὔτε βάθος οὔτε τις κτίσις ἑτέρα δυνήσεται ἡμᾶς χωρίσαι ἀπὸ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν

    By this being true, God has no Love for anyone outside of Christ Jesus. So the world in Jn 3:16 is In Christ Jesus.

    And its no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus Rom 8:1

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Now you have to prove from scripture that God Loved people outside of Christ Jesus.

    John 3:16 is the world God Loved in Christ Jesus and the world He came to save Vs 17
     
    #85 Brightfame52, Mar 26, 2024
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @JonC

    Dont say we, I dont believe that, and scripture doesnt teach that.. The elect world has always been in Christ, so never condemned. What you believe is error friend
     
    #86 Brightfame52, Mar 26, 2024
  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    559
    Faith:
    Baptist

    So if they were never condemned why did they need a redeemer? Your logic is flawed to say the least.
     
    #87 Silverhair, Mar 26, 2024
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No one can lay a charge to God's elect.

    That does not mean that men who were lost and "enemies of God", who "are now not under condemnation", were not at one time.

    You are reading your ideas about the elect into passages.
     
    #88 JonC, Mar 26, 2024
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's easy. "Love" is an action, not an emotion. God blesses the godly and the ungodly. And while we were sinners Christ died for us. And we are NO LONGER condemned (which means we once was). And God loved the world (mankind) by sending His Son to a people who rejected Jesus but all who believes are God's children.

    You are forcing your ideas on Scripture rather than taking God's Word as He delivered it to us.
     
    #89 JonC, Mar 26, 2024
  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Because they are sinners duh
     
    #90 Brightfame52, Mar 26, 2024
  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It means the election of Grace was never condemned by God but they didn't know it until they heard the Good news of the Gospel
     
    #91 Brightfame52, Mar 26, 2024
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Now you don't believe the love of God is exclusively in Christ.
     
    #92 Brightfame52, Mar 26, 2024
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. The passage states that they were condemned and are no longer condemned IN CHRIST.

    Likewise, God reconciled the World (man) IN CHRIST.

    No passage states that they just thought they were condemned, just thought they were of the World and were called out, just thought they were God's enemies.
     
    #93 JonC, Mar 26, 2024
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is a false statement. My point is that the love of God is exclusively in Christ.

    Until one dies to himself and is born anew "in Christ" they are not "among the elect".

    You can't build a reliable theology starting with the elect or even with the Father. We only know the Father through Christ.

    What you have done is try to find a workaround. There isn't one. He is the way. It is not the Father's election that saves but the Son's work.
     
    #94 JonC, Mar 26, 2024
  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    False statement it says no such thing
     
    #95 Brightfame52, Mar 26, 2024
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well the world in John 3:16 is in Christ because God's love is exclusively in Christ. Do you believe that?
     
    #96 Brightfame52, Mar 26, 2024
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    559
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But you keep saying they were not condemned so now you have sinners that are not condemned? That is not biblical.
     
    #97 Silverhair, Mar 26, 2024
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The World of the Elect !

    2 Cor 5:19

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    This world has been discharged of all of its sins, and is in a blessed state as these to whom God will not impute sin Rom 4:7-8

    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


    8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Now the World in 2 Cor 5:19 cant be the condemned world in 1 Cor 11:32

    32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


    This world is condemned and charged with its sins ! 3
     
    #98 Brightfame52, Mar 27, 2024
  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I never said the elect weren't sinful, but that they weren't condemned for being sinners. DUH

    Though they are ungodly sinners like everyone else by nature, yet they are not charged with their sin, 2 Cor 5:19

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    God doesnt even charge them with their first trespass in Adam Rom 5:18

    Therefore as by the offence or trespass of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
     
    #99 Brightfame52, Mar 27, 2024
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    559
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Brightfame52 the calvinist mantra is that the elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Now your saying that those same people can sin
    "I have told you over and over and over, The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is the elect. It doesnt have any sins charged to it, its not condemned. God doesnt condemn His elect Rom 8:33"
    "I never said the elect weren't sinful, but that they weren't condemned for being sinners"

    Since, according to clvinism, the "elect" were chosen B4 the world began they were never in fear of being condemned so again I ask why did they need a redeemer. They were going to heaven no matter what and the "non-elect" were going to hell no matter what.

    So under calvinism the "elects" sinful actions have zero effect on their future destination. You do realize that your view is not biblical.
     
    #100 Silverhair, Mar 27, 2024
Page 5 of 10
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...