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Calvinism Alone Gives fullest glory and honor to the Grace of God

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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
again in this topic. I see the wrath of God equaling the judgement of God. God judges sin, he must as he is a holy God. So when I see someone say that Jesus took the righteous judgment of God on our behalf. so we would not suffer the wrath of God on the last day.. or his wrath, It does not bother me any.

A greater example I would use is roman 9-11 specifically romans 9

there is a fatalistic interpretation

and then there is a National interpretation.
God does judge sin (He either punishes or forgives). At Judgment Scripture tells us that the wicked will be punished.

My point is at Judgment if one is still a sinner, not conformed to the image of Christ, then they are wicked abd will perish even if they call thenselves "Christian".


The idea that justice demands a punishment for every crime that must be met to bring justice to a state of equilibrium is a 16th century secular philosophy that does not belong in the mind of a believer (or secularly for that matter as it ultimately failed).

The Bible tells God forgives sins, and He does so based on turning from a mind set on the flesh to a mind set on the Spirit. The Bible also explains that our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law.


God can forgive sins. God does not have to punish sins in order to be just. This forgiveness is based on man being recreated, becoming a new man.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
God does judge sin (He either punishes or forgives). At Judgment Scripture tells us that the wicked will be punished.

My point is at Judgment if one is still a sinner, not conformed to the image of Christ, then they are wicked abd will perish even if they call thenselves "Christian".


The idea that justice demands a punishment for every crime that must be met to bring justice to a state of equilibrium is a 16th century secular philosophy that does not belong in the mind of a believer (or secularly for that matter as it ultimately failed).

The Bible tells God forgives sins, and He does so based on turning from a mind set on the flesh to a mind set on the Spirit. The Bible also explains that our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law.


God can forgive sins. God does not have to punish sins in order to be just. This forgiveness is based on man being recreated, becoming a new man.
Here this poster denies the truths of God's holiness and justice in an astounding way. A holy God punishes all sin. To deny this is to deny the fall, and and God's justice. What a sad post this.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Here this poster denies the truths of God's holiness and justice in an astounding way. A holy God punishes all sin. To deny this is to deny the fall, and and God's justice. What a sad post this.

I am trying to understand your calvinst view on sin and punishment. Who suffers the punishment Z? You only have two options Christ or the person. So if Christ suffered the punishment for all sins then why is anyone judged? If man suffers the punishment for his sins then what is forgiveness of sins all about? Is Christ punished for the persons sins when that person is forgiven?
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
I am trying to understand your calvinst view on sin and punishment. Who suffers the punishment Z? You only have two options Christ or the person. So if Christ suffered the punishment for all sins then why is anyone judged? If man suffers the punishment for his sins then what is forgiveness of sins all about? Is Christ punished for the persons sins when that person is forgiven?
All sin is punished
The unsaved sinner goes to hell...second death

Jesus took the penalty for the sins of the elect in a Covenant death
His righteousness is given to the elect sinner.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
All sin is punished
The unsaved sinner goes to hell...second death

Jesus took the penalty for the sins of the elect in a Covenant death
His righteousness is given to the elect sinner.

Actually Christ did much more than you give Him credit for.

1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Ti 4:10 To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, and especially of those who believe.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.

Rom 5:6 For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

So are you telling me that only your so called "elect" were ungodly sinners? If that were true then why are all the non-elect being judged since they were not ungodly sinners.

We are even told why Christ came into this world

Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

1Ti 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
Rom 5:6 For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

So are you telling me that only your so called "elect" were ungodly sinners? If that were true then why are all the non-elect being judged since they were not ungodly sinners.
I will answer this, not for your sake, but for those who will read it.I know you do not.

Romans5 Is speaking only of the Elect. You normally do not pay attention to the context, but for the sake of others we can look here;
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

A] {Only the saved Elect have peace with God. Only the saved Elect are justified. When bible students follow the context, the whole passage opens up.}

2 By whom also [we] have access by faith into this grace wherein [we] stand, and [rejoice in hope] of the glory of God.

b], {we, we, rejoice in hope}......only the justified elect do that.

3 And not only so, but[we glory in tribulations] also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

c] WE glory in tribulation......... still the justified elect!..getting the picture silverhair?


4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; [because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.]

d] Here we are told where the love of God is, in the heart of the justified Elect.


6 For when [we] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

e] Still the justified ELECT

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward [us,] in that, while[ we] were yet sinners, Christ died for[ us.]

f ] we, we, us, still the justified elect.



9 Much more then, [being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.]

G] justified, we, saved from wrath, ...the justified ELECT


10 For if, when [we] were enemies, [we] were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, [being reconciled], [we] shall be saved by his life.


H] we, we, being reconciled, we shall be saved......the justified ELECT


11 And not only so, but [we also joy in God] through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [we have now received the atonement.]

Only the justified elect are in view!
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I will answer this, not for your sake, but for those who will read it.I know you do not.

Romans5 Is speaking only of the Elect. You normally do not pay attention to the context, but for the sake of others we can look here;
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

A] {Only the saved Elect have peace with God. Only the saved Elect are justified. When bible students follow the context, the whole passage opens up.}

2 By whom also [we] have access by faith into this grace wherein [we] stand, and [rejoice in hope] of the glory of God.

b], {we, we, rejoice in hope}......only the justified elect do that.

3 And not only so, but[we glory in tribulations] also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

c] WE glory in tribulation......... still the justified elect!..getting the picture silverhair?


4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; [because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.]

d] Here we are told where the love of God is, in the heart of the justified Elect.


6 For when [we] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

e] Still the justified ELECT

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward [us,] in that, while[ we] were yet sinners, Christ died for[ us.]

f ] we, we, us, still the justified elect.



9 Much more then, [being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.]

G] justified, we, saved from wrath, ...the justified ELECT


10 For if, when [we] were enemies, [we] were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, [being reconciled], [we] shall be saved by his life.


H] we, we, being reconciled, we shall be saved......the justified ELECT


11 And not only so, but [we also joy in God] through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [we have now received the atonement.]

Only the justified elect are in view!

Z you blew it with your first comment. "Romans5 Is speaking only of the Elect."
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I am trying to understand your calvinst view on sin and punishment. Who suffers the punishment Z? You only have two options Christ or the person. So if Christ suffered the punishment for all sins then why is anyone judged? If man suffers the punishment for his sins then what is forgiveness of sins all about? Is Christ punished for the persons sins when that person is forgiven?
Calvinism is only consistent within a very small box. Start looking around and it falls apart.

If redemotion is God punishing our sins in Jesus instead if us, then why did Jesus have to die at all as we still die.

If we are recreated and are being conformed into the image of Christ then why punish our sins at all as on "the day of wrath" we would be new creations in the image of Christ rather than wicked?

If God must punish sins then how can God forgive sins (God can't both punish and forgive the same sins).

Why does God do what He said is an abomination?

Why does the Bible repeatedly tell us God forgives sins when men turn from themselves and to Him, yet never once say God forgives sins by punishing then on Jesus?

Why does God say sins will not be transferred from one to another if that is what He does (and He would obviously be ine only one who could do it).


Calvinism is a stand alone philosophy. Scripture only gets in the way. And even then it is juvenile in its logic.
 
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Ben1445

Well-Known Member
I am trying to understand your calvinst view on sin and punishment. Who suffers the punishment Z? You only have two options Christ or the person. So if Christ suffered the punishment for all sins then why is anyone judged? If man suffers the punishment for his sins then what is forgiveness of sins all about? Is Christ punished for the persons sins when that person is forgiven?
The unbeliever is still in their sins. The fact that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world does not constitute universalism. It does not also imply that there cannot be judgment reserved for the unbelievers.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Oh I understand it quite well I just do not accept your calvinist slant on the word of God.
But it is not a Calvinist slant to say that the epistle to the Romans is addressed to saved people. Paul says whom he is writing to:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.” (Ro 1:7-8 NKJV)
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
But it is not a Calvinist slant to say that the epistle to the Romans is addressed to saved people. Paul says whom he is writing to:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.” (Ro 1:7-8 NKJV)
And it is not also to the lost?

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Or do they have to come by the Old Testament to have the New Testament apply to them?

That statement hardly applies to the entire book. It may be that the letter is addressed to believers, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply to me since I am not in Rome.

The implications of your statement are greater than you realize.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
And it is not also to the lost?

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Or do they have to come by the Old Testament to have the New Testament apply to them?

That statement hardly applies to the entire book. It may be that the letter is addressed to believers, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply to me since I am not in Rome.

The implications of your statement are greater than you realize.
No, he sometimes writes things about unsaved people in the letter, but the letter is addressed to Christian believers.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
God does judge sin (He either punishes or forgives). At Judgment Scripture tells us that the wicked will be punished.
why are they condemned? because of sin, or because they did not believe?
My point is at Judgment if one is still a sinner, not conformed to the image of Christ, then they are wicked abd will perish even if they call thenselves "Christian".
again, why are they condemned, because they sinned or because they did nto believe.

what seperates the non condemned from the condemned?

Why did Jesus say all manner of sin will be forgiven men?
The idea that justice demands a punishment for every crime that must be met to bring justice to a state of equilibrium is a 16th century secular philosophy that does not belong in the mind of a believer (or secularly for that matter as it ultimately failed).

The Bible tells God forgives sins, and He does so based on turning from a mind set on the flesh to a mind set on the Spirit. The Bible also explains that our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law.
He forgives sin because the price of sin was paid.

His love alone could not over rule his justice, if it could. He never would have needed to come to earth. fulfill the law. and suffer the cross.

He suffered the cross to purchase forgiveness.. so that forgievvess could be offered to all men.

Apart from the cross. we all stand condemned, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I think paul states it best

Rom 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Grace is free to the believe, but it cost God a lot.. he paid for it with his blood.

It is our faith in him by which we receive this salvation or forgiveness. because Jesus redeemed (purchased us) with his own blood
God can forgive sins. God does not have to punish sins in order to be just.
He can not just forgive sins. That would not make him a righteous judge if he forgave you your sins, but did not forgive everyone who committed the same sins..


This forgiveness is based on man being recreated, becoming a new man.
The forgiveness is based on the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. and the redemption he paid in our place.

redemption

we are redeemed by the curse of the law

Galatians 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

we are redeemed by the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

1 Peter 1:18
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

we were redeemed out of every nation of the earth

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

without the shedding of blood. as hebrews says, there can be no forgiveness. This is what the law showed. Mans plight against God was so severe only one person could enter into Gods presence. and then, only once a year. and then only after blood was shed.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Here this poster denies the truths of God's holiness and justice in an astounding way. A holy God punishes all sin. To deny this is to deny the fall, and and God's justice. What a sad post this.
yes he did punish all sins.

all but one..

there is something which separates the saved from the lost..

Grace is offered to all..

but something must happen for the person to receive this grace.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
I am trying to understand your calvinst view on sin and punishment. Who suffers the punishment Z? You only have two options Christ or the person. So if Christ suffered the punishment for all sins then why is anyone judged? If man suffers the punishment for his sins then what is forgiveness of sins all about? Is Christ punished for the persons sins when that person is forgiven?
this is why they think Christ just died for the elect..
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
I will answer this, not for your sake, but for those who will read it.I know you do not.

Romans5 Is speaking only of the Elect. You normally do not pay attention to the context, but for the sake of others we can look here;
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
typical response when the actual word does not say what you think
 
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