Can Non Calvinists Believe the Gospel Of The Kingdom? Is that Even Possible?

[MrW]

I am always surprised that so many of the anti-biblical types think that the bible has to agree with calvinism if the word of God is to be considered true.

They seem to think calvinism is the standard by which the bible is to be judged.

They think Calvinism IS Christianity.

You know they came part way out of Catholicism.

Ask a Catholic if he is a Christian. He will answer, “I’m a Catholic.” He assumes Catholic and Christian are the same.

I hope we know being a Baptist is not always the same as being a Christian, even though it should.

 

[Silverhair]

Sin makes them turn away, They are bound by a wicked sin nature. The only choice made is to sin, never to seek God. Your attempted in the greek scam did not work.

Z you do not even trust the word of God, what is wrong with you? You in your arrogance and pride in your vaunted calvinism you have closed your mind to the biblical truth.

Under your calvinism they can only do as God has determined that they do so even their turning away in sin would only be because your version of God has made it so.

Of course you will deny this but then you have to deny the basis of your views, divine determinism.

 

[canadyjd]

All people have the ability to respond to the various means that God has provided with which to know Him…..

“Various means” is unbiblical. There is only one “means” of salvation.

1 Corinthians is very clear. Since man did not come to know God through their own wisdom, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached (Jesus Christ and Him crucified) to save those who believe.

There is no salvation without the gospel. The ideology of “responding to the light you have” is a lie from the mouth of Satan that takes the focus off Jesus and puts it on the man.

Anyone that believes many are saved without hearing the gospel is thoroughly deceived and blinded by ignorance of God’s Word.

The more deceived some folks are, the louder they pontificate their nonsense.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

They think Calvinism IS Christianity.

You know they came part way out of Catholicism.

Ask a Catholic if he is a Christian. He will answer, “I’m a Catholic.” He assumes Catholic and Christian are the same.

I hope we know being a Baptist is not always the same as being a Christian, even though it should.

They think the doctrines of grace are clearly taught in scripture and they are correct.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

@MrW, do you agree with SH that many are saved without hearing the gospel? Do you agree with him the gospel is not necessary for salvation?

If you do, that is all I need to know about your opinion of God’s Word.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

“Various means” is unbiblical. There is only one “means” of salvation.

1 Corinthians is very clear. Since man did not come to know God through their own wisdom, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached (Jesus Christ and Him crucified) to save those who believe.

There is no salvation without the gospel. The ideology of “responding to the light you have” is a lie from the mouth of Satan that takes the focus off Jesus and puts it on the man.

Anyone that believes many are saved without hearing the gospel is thoroughly deceived and blinded by ignorance of God’s Word.

The more deceived some folks are, the louder they pontificate their nonsense.

Peace to you

Well I see that you are still trying to deny the power of God.

As I have said many times @canadyjd "All people have the ability to respond to the various means that God has provided with which to know Him" Why do you want to limit God?

Have you never read in the bible of creation, conviction of the Holy Spirit? I am really surprised that you continue to deny these means that God has provided.

What do you say about Job or Abraham or David. Did they not know God, were they not saved?

Did any of the OT saints listed in Heb 11 hear the gospel message? Are all of them in hell because they did not hear that message?

Can you explain Heb 11:5 according to your no one is saved without hearing the gospel first view?

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

I do agree with one comment you made "The more deceived some folks are, the louder they pontificate their nonsense."

Your continued denial of the power of God to save those He chooses to save is nonsense.

 

[Silverhair]

They think the doctrines of grace are clearly taught in scripture and they are correct.

Peace to you

You are right @canadyjd "they think the doctrines of grace are clearly taught in scripture".

Your TULIP/DoG is a man-made philosophy based on 4th century teachings that deny to truth of God's word.

 

[David Lamb]

Try reading it without the calvinist glasses.

Rom 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

You should look at the Greek if you want to have a clearer picture of what Paul was saying here.
Rom 3:11 οὐκ There G3756 PRT-N ἔστιν Is Not One G2076 V-PXI-3S ὁ That G3588 T-NSM συνίων Understands, G4920 V-PAP-NSM οὐκ There G3756 PRT-N ἔστιν Is Not One G2076 V-PXI-3S ὁ That G3588 T-NSM ἐκζητῶν Seeks After G1567 V-PAP-NSM τὸν G3588 T-ASM θεόν God G2316 N-ASM TRi+

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. The action is Progressive (Continuous)

No one always understands and no one always seeks God. This is true even for those that have been save are are in Christ.

Rom 3:12 All have turned away, {that requires a choice to be made, that indicates free will} they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Now if you say that it does not indicate free will then the only other option is that God made them turn away. Is that what you are saying David?

No that is not what I am saying. What I mean is that unsaved sinners, in their sinful nature, have no desire to turn to God, to believe on the only Saviour from sin. These are spiritual truths which we are told the natural (unsaved) man cannot receive:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

 

[Silverhair]

No that is not what I am saying. What I mean is that unsaved sinners, in their sinful nature, have no desire to turn to God, to believe on the only Saviour from sin. These are spiritual truths which we are told the natural (unsaved) man cannot receive:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

We were all unsaved sinners before we responded to the drawing of God. God uses many means to draw man to Himself whether creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message etc. But even with all these it is still the unregenerate man that must respond as God does not do it for him. That is why we are told to preach the gospel to all.

Rom 1:16 tells us it is the power of God to salvation and we see this in Acts 16: 30-31 with the jailer. Then we have Cornelius, a devout man and one who feared God. Was he saved at the time, NO. Take Lydia, a worshiper of God. Had she received Jesus, was she saved?

Pentecost [Act 2:38-41] is another example of the unsaved that hear and respond in faith to the gospel message. All heard but only some freely trusted in Jesus.

Note the wording of 1Co_2:14. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he cannot receive them. While conviction by the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8, and the drawing by Christ Joh_12:32, is extended to every sinner Mar_16:15, 1Ti_2:3-4 this does not overrule their free will. Many will hear the gospel message by which they can be saved Rom_1:16 but will reject it for reasons only they know.

 

[David Lamb]

We were all unsaved sinners before we responded to the drawing of God. God uses many means to draw man to Himself whether creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message etc. But even with all these it is still the unregenerate man that must respond as God does not do it for him.

Yes, I agree, God does not do the responding for the sinner, but He enables the sinner to believe.

That is why we are told to preach the gospel to all.

Rom 1:16 tells us it is the power of God to salvation and we see this in Acts 16: 30-31 with the jailer. Then we have Cornelius, a devout man and one who feared God. Was he saved at the time, NO. Take Lydia, a worshiper of God. Had she received Jesus, was she saved?

Pentecost [Act 2:38-41] is another example of the unsaved that hear and respond in faith to the gospel message. All heard but only some freely trusted in Jesus.

Again, I agree. We don't know who will be saved and who will not. We are to preach the gospel to all.

Note the wording of 1Co_2:14. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he cannot receive them. While conviction by the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8, and the drawing by Christ Joh_12:32, is extended to every sinner Mar_16:15, 1Ti_2:3-4 this does not overrule their free will. Many will hear the gospel message by which they can be saved Rom_1:16 but will reject it for reasons only they know.

It does end with something the natural man cannot do: "nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." If he cannot even know the things of God, how can he believe them?

 

[Silverhair]

It does end with something the natural man cannot do: "nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." If he cannot even know the things of God, how can he believe them?

Up to the point that one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit they are a natural man. The natural man can respond to the various means that God has used to draw them to Him but he can also reject that same drawing.

Those that reject the drawing of God will remain in that state and will continue to reject the truths of God even though they know what they are. That He is the creator, that salvation comes through faith in Him etc.

But Paul was not speaking of knowing onto salvation but of knowing after salvation after one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 2:14

If you look back to 1Co 2:11 it will clear up some of your confusion. "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." just as "who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him"

So we see that unless one is indwelt by the Spirit of God there are many things of God that one cannot understand or accept.

 

[Zaatar71]

They think Calvinism IS Christianity.

What do you think it is? Buddism?

You know they came part way out of Catholicism.

No all came out of Rome

Ask a Catholic if he is a Christian. He will answer, “I’m a Catholic.” He assumes Catholic and Christian are the same.

In a generic sense

I hope we know being a Baptist is not always the same as being a Christian, even though it should.

So MRW, what would a "Baptist" be without being a Christian...a wet heathen?

 

[Zaatar71]

Up to the point that one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit they are a natural man. The natural man can respond to the various means that God has used to draw them to Him but he can also reject that same drawing.

Here we see SH contradicting scripture here in a public forum, the scripture declares the opposite...The natural man cannot!

Those that reject the drawing of God will remain in that state and will continue to reject the truths of God even though they know what they are. That He is the creator, that salvation comes through faith in Him etc.

men reject the general call, but no one rejects the effectual call.

But Paul was not speaking of knowing onto salvation but of knowing after salvation after one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 2:14

If you look back to 1Co 2:11 it will clear up some of your confusion. "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." just as "who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him"

So we see that unless one is indwelt by the Spirit of God there are many things of God that one cannot understand or accept.

That is the teaching of Calvinism, sooner or later all come to agree.

 

[Silverhair]

Here we see SH contradicting scripture here in a public forum, the scripture declares the opposite...The natural man cannot!

So are you saying that Lydia, none of the Jews at Pentecost or Cornelius could understand the gospel message, that is not what we see in scripture.

We see in scripture that the natural man can hear and respond in faith. So when we see this in scripture then it is obvious that you have misunderstood what Paul is saying in 1Co 2:14

men reject the general call, but no one rejects the effectual call.

Your effectual call is just a false calvinist invention that you hope will support your man-made religion.

That is the teaching of Calvinism, sooner or later all come to agree.

The teaching of calvinism is that man has to be given faith as they cannot understand the gospel. The bible tells us we can hear and believe the gospel. So your idea that the natural man cannot is false.

Paul was telling us that the natural does not accept the things of God as they are foolishness to him. Since he is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit he would not know the things of the Spirit of God.