Can Non Calvinists Believe the Gospel Of The Kingdom? Is that Even Possible?

[MrW]

I am always surprised that so many of the anti-biblical types think that the bible has to agree with calvinism if the word of God is to be considered true.

They seem to think calvinism is the standard by which the bible is to be judged.

They think Calvinism IS Christianity.

You know they came part way out of Catholicism.

Ask a Catholic if he is a Christian. He will answer, “I’m a Catholic.” He assumes Catholic and Christian are the same.

I hope we know being a Baptist is not always the same as being a Christian, even though it should.

 

[Silverhair]

Sin makes them turn away, They are bound by a wicked sin nature. The only choice made is to sin, never to seek God. Your attempted in the greek scam did not work.

Z you do not even trust the word of God, what is wrong with you? You in your arrogance and pride in your vaunted calvinism you have closed your mind to the biblical truth.

Under your calvinism they can only do as God has determined that they do so even their turning away in sin would only be because your version of God has made it so.

Of course you will deny this but then you have to deny the basis of your views, divine determinism.

 

[canadyjd]

All people have the ability to respond to the various means that God has provided with which to know Him…..

“Various means” is unbiblical. There is only one “means” of salvation.

1 Corinthians is very clear. Since man did not come to know God through their own wisdom, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached (Jesus Christ and Him crucified) to save those who believe.

There is no salvation without the gospel. The ideology of “responding to the light you have” is a lie from the mouth of Satan that takes the focus off Jesus and puts it on the man.

Anyone that believes many are saved without hearing the gospel is thoroughly deceived and blinded by ignorance of God’s Word.

The more deceived some folks are, the louder they pontificate their nonsense.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

They think Calvinism IS Christianity.

You know they came part way out of Catholicism.

Ask a Catholic if he is a Christian. He will answer, “I’m a Catholic.” He assumes Catholic and Christian are the same.

I hope we know being a Baptist is not always the same as being a Christian, even though it should.

They think the doctrines of grace are clearly taught in scripture and they are correct.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

@MrW, do you agree with SH that many are saved without hearing the gospel? Do you agree with him the gospel is not necessary for salvation?

If you do, that is all I need to know about your opinion of God’s Word.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

“Various means” is unbiblical. There is only one “means” of salvation.

1 Corinthians is very clear. Since man did not come to know God through their own wisdom, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached (Jesus Christ and Him crucified) to save those who believe.

There is no salvation without the gospel. The ideology of “responding to the light you have” is a lie from the mouth of Satan that takes the focus off Jesus and puts it on the man.

Anyone that believes many are saved without hearing the gospel is thoroughly deceived and blinded by ignorance of God’s Word.

The more deceived some folks are, the louder they pontificate their nonsense.

Peace to you

Well I see that you are still trying to deny the power of God.

As I have said many times @canadyjd "All people have the ability to respond to the various means that God has provided with which to know Him" Why do you want to limit God?

Have you never read in the bible of creation, conviction of the Holy Spirit? I am really surprised that you continue to deny these means that God has provided.

What do you say about Job or Abraham or David. Did they not know God, were they not saved?

Did any of the OT saints listed in Heb 11 hear the gospel message? Are all of them in hell because they did not hear that message?

Can you explain Heb 11:5 according to your no one is saved without hearing the gospel first view?

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

I do agree with one comment you made "The more deceived some folks are, the louder they pontificate their nonsense."

Your continued denial of the power of God to save those He chooses to save is nonsense.

 

[Silverhair]

They think the doctrines of grace are clearly taught in scripture and they are correct.

Peace to you

You are right @canadyjd "they think the doctrines of grace are clearly taught in scripture".

Your TULIP/DoG is a man-made philosophy based on 4th century teachings that deny to truth of God's word.

 

[David Lamb]

Try reading it without the calvinist glasses.

Rom 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

You should look at the Greek if you want to have a clearer picture of what Paul was saying here.
Rom 3:11 οὐκ There G3756 PRT-N ἔστιν Is Not One G2076 V-PXI-3S ὁ That G3588 T-NSM συνίων Understands, G4920 V-PAP-NSM οὐκ There G3756 PRT-N ἔστιν Is Not One G2076 V-PXI-3S ὁ That G3588 T-NSM ἐκζητῶν Seeks After G1567 V-PAP-NSM τὸν G3588 T-ASM θεόν God G2316 N-ASM TRi+

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. The action is Progressive (Continuous)

No one always understands and no one always seeks God. This is true even for those that have been save are are in Christ.

Rom 3:12 All have turned away, {that requires a choice to be made, that indicates free will} they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Now if you say that it does not indicate free will then the only other option is that God made them turn away. Is that what you are saying David?

No that is not what I am saying. What I mean is that unsaved sinners, in their sinful nature, have no desire to turn to God, to believe on the only Saviour from sin. These are spiritual truths which we are told the natural (unsaved) man cannot receive:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

 

[Silverhair]

No that is not what I am saying. What I mean is that unsaved sinners, in their sinful nature, have no desire to turn to God, to believe on the only Saviour from sin. These are spiritual truths which we are told the natural (unsaved) man cannot receive:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

We were all unsaved sinners before we responded to the drawing of God. God uses many means to draw man to Himself whether creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message etc. But even with all these it is still the unregenerate man that must respond as God does not do it for him. That is why we are told to preach the gospel to all.

Rom 1:16 tells us it is the power of God to salvation and we see this in Acts 16: 30-31 with the jailer. Then we have Cornelius, a devout man and one who feared God. Was he saved at the time, NO. Take Lydia, a worshiper of God. Had she received Jesus, was she saved?

Pentecost [Act 2:38-41] is another example of the unsaved that hear and respond in faith to the gospel message. All heard but only some freely trusted in Jesus.

Note the wording of 1Co_2:14. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he cannot receive them. While conviction by the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8, and the drawing by Christ Joh_12:32, is extended to every sinner Mar_16:15, 1Ti_2:3-4 this does not overrule their free will. Many will hear the gospel message by which they can be saved Rom_1:16 but will reject it for reasons only they know.

 

[David Lamb]

We were all unsaved sinners before we responded to the drawing of God. God uses many means to draw man to Himself whether creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message etc. But even with all these it is still the unregenerate man that must respond as God does not do it for him.

Yes, I agree, God does not do the responding for the sinner, but He enables the sinner to believe.

That is why we are told to preach the gospel to all.

Rom 1:16 tells us it is the power of God to salvation and we see this in Acts 16: 30-31 with the jailer. Then we have Cornelius, a devout man and one who feared God. Was he saved at the time, NO. Take Lydia, a worshiper of God. Had she received Jesus, was she saved?

Pentecost [Act 2:38-41] is another example of the unsaved that hear and respond in faith to the gospel message. All heard but only some freely trusted in Jesus.

Again, I agree. We don't know who will be saved and who will not. We are to preach the gospel to all.

Note the wording of 1Co_2:14. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he cannot receive them. While conviction by the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8, and the drawing by Christ Joh_12:32, is extended to every sinner Mar_16:15, 1Ti_2:3-4 this does not overrule their free will. Many will hear the gospel message by which they can be saved Rom_1:16 but will reject it for reasons only they know.

It does end with something the natural man cannot do: "nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." If he cannot even know the things of God, how can he believe them?

 

[Silverhair]

It does end with something the natural man cannot do: "nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." If he cannot even know the things of God, how can he believe them?

Up to the point that one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit they are a natural man. The natural man can respond to the various means that God has used to draw them to Him but he can also reject that same drawing.

Those that reject the drawing of God will remain in that state and will continue to reject the truths of God even though they know what they are. That He is the creator, that salvation comes through faith in Him etc.

But Paul was not speaking of knowing onto salvation but of knowing after salvation after one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 2:14

If you look back to 1Co 2:11 it will clear up some of your confusion. "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." just as "who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him"

So we see that unless one is indwelt by the Spirit of God there are many things of God that one cannot understand or accept.

 

[Zaatar71]

They think Calvinism IS Christianity.

What do you think it is? Buddism?

You know they came part way out of Catholicism.

No all came out of Rome

Ask a Catholic if he is a Christian. He will answer, “I’m a Catholic.” He assumes Catholic and Christian are the same.

In a generic sense

I hope we know being a Baptist is not always the same as being a Christian, even though it should.

So MRW, what would a "Baptist" be without being a Christian...a wet heathen?

 

[Zaatar71]

Up to the point that one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit they are a natural man. The natural man can respond to the various means that God has used to draw them to Him but he can also reject that same drawing.

Here we see SH contradicting scripture here in a public forum, the scripture declares the opposite...The natural man cannot!

Those that reject the drawing of God will remain in that state and will continue to reject the truths of God even though they know what they are. That He is the creator, that salvation comes through faith in Him etc.

men reject the general call, but no one rejects the effectual call.

But Paul was not speaking of knowing onto salvation but of knowing after salvation after one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 2:14

If you look back to 1Co 2:11 it will clear up some of your confusion. "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." just as "who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him"

So we see that unless one is indwelt by the Spirit of God there are many things of God that one cannot understand or accept.

That is the teaching of Calvinism, sooner or later all come to agree.

 

[Silverhair]

Here we see SH contradicting scripture here in a public forum, the scripture declares the opposite...The natural man cannot!

So are you saying that Lydia, none of the Jews at Pentecost or Cornelius could understand the gospel message, that is not what we see in scripture.

We see in scripture that the natural man can hear and respond in faith. So when we see this in scripture then it is obvious that you have misunderstood what Paul is saying in 1Co 2:14

men reject the general call, but no one rejects the effectual call.

Your effectual call is just a false calvinist invention that you hope will support your man-made religion.

That is the teaching of Calvinism, sooner or later all come to agree.

The teaching of calvinism is that man has to be given faith as they cannot understand the gospel. The bible tells us we can hear and believe the gospel. So your idea that the natural man cannot is false.

Paul was telling us that the natural does not accept the things of God as they are foolishness to him. Since he is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit he would not know the things of the Spirit of God.

 

[David Lamb]

Up to the point that one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit they are a natural man. The natural man can respond to the various means that God has used to draw them to Him but he can also reject that same drawing.

Those that reject the drawing of God will remain in that state and will continue to reject the truths of God even though they know what they are. That He is the creator, that salvation comes through faith in Him etc.

But Paul was not speaking of knowing onto salvation but of knowing after salvation after one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 2:14

If you look back to 1Co 2:11 it will clear up some of your confusion. "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." just as "who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him"

So we see that unless one is indwelt by the Spirit of God there are many things of God that one cannot understand or accept.

But Paul wrote that the natural man can neither receive nor know the things of God. That being so, he is in no position to respond to God and His truth. You say that 1 Corinthians 2:11 will clear things up. As you say, that verse says that "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." When we are converted, we receive the Spirit of God. The bible makes clear that a person cannot be a Christian without the Holy Spirit:

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Ro 8:9 NKJV)

 

[Silverhair]

But Paul wrote that the natural man can neither receive nor know the things of God. That being so, he is in no position to respond to God and His truth. You say that 1 Corinthians 2:11 will clear things up. As you say, that verse says that "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." When we are converted, we receive the Spirit of God. The bible makes clear that a person cannot be a Christian without the Holy Spirit:

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Ro 8:9 NKJV)

Paul wrote that the natural man will not accept the things of God and we see that is true. How many people do you know that have been presented the gospel message and yet they reject it. Is it because they do not understand it or is it because they choose to reject it even though they understood what was being presented?

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit must indwell someone before they can respond in faith to the gospel message?

Now if we went by the calvinist view then the only reason they have rejected it is because God has not given them the ability to understand it but then that contradicts other scripture that says God wants all to come to repentance.

But we are told that the gospel is the power of God to salvation Rom 1:16 to all that will believe it. So it is a choice. We see this again in Eph 1:13 and Rom 10:9-1 0 and all the other times that the message is presented.

When you read 1Co-2:1-16 you will see that it was not that they could not it was that they would not.

Although the gospel message is simple enough for a child to understand not all will accept it. Those that do are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and as we mature we come to understand the meaning of justification, sanctification, adoption, propitiation, election, inspiration, etc. For those that have rejected God these words, although they can look up meanings in a dictionary, mean nothing to them.

As a Christian we know God gives us new insights into old truths as we compare one part of Scripture with another. The unsaved man does not accept the things of the Spirit because he does not believe in them and they are foolishness to him. But as the Christian day by day receives the things of the Spirit, he grows and matures.

I agree that if we are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit then we are not His but the question then becomes when is one indwelt? Is it before or after they believe?

 

[JD731]

But Paul wrote that the natural man can neither receive nor know the things of God. That being so, he is in no position to respond to God and His truth. You say that 1 Corinthians 2:11 will clear things up. As you say, that verse says that "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." When we are converted, we receive the Spirit of God. The bible makes clear that a person cannot be a Christian without the Holy Spirit:

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Ro 8:9 NKJV)

This is a juvenile argument by Mr. Lamb. It defies godly logic and reason. The passage he is quoting does not even hint that a sinner cannot understand and embrace the salvation promise of God by faith in Jesus Christ who is eternal life. This message is the heart of the gospel and it, as is demonstrated here on a regular basis what Calvinists DO NOT BELIEVE, which unbelief they declare to others always. If someone has not the intellectual capabilities to believe this gospel then they are not a candidate for this salvation. The reason is because the information given by the preacher must be processed by intellect, emotion, and will of the hearer and either 1) received by believing it or2) rejected by unbelief. These are the only two responses.
1 Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

I will not be talked out of this by Calvinisms arguments.

However, the passage Mr Lamb quoted is not about preaching the gospel, it is speaking of a contrast between those who have believed the gospel and those who don't. The long and short of the argument without going into much detail here is that those who don't believe and receive the Spirit have no possibility of mining the deep things of God that he refers to as mysteries. These mysteries are hidden in the mind of God the Father and are taught to the inquiring mind by the Spirit who dwells in the believer.

1 Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

What is the wisdom of God according as the Bible defines it? Are we told? Can we know? the answer is "yes."

Here is the answer.

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

The church of Jesus Christ is the wisdom of God acknowledged by heavenly entities.

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Most If not all Calvinists do not know the doctrine of the church that was hidden from the prophets till Jesus came. It was a mystery. A series of mysteries, including the catching away before the wrath of God.

 

[David Lamb]

Paul wrote that the natural man will not accept the things of God and we see that is true. How many people do you know that have been presented the gospel message and yet they reject it. Is it because they do not understand it or is it because they choose to reject it even though they understood what was being presented?

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit must indwell someone before they can respond in faith to the gospel message?

Now if we went by the calvinist view then the only reason they have rejected it is because God has not given them the ability to understand it but then that contradicts other scripture that says God wants all to come to repentance.

But we are told that the gospel is the power of God to salvation Rom 1:16 to all that will believe it. So it is a choice. We see this again in Eph 1:13 and Rom 10:9-1 0 and all the other times that the message is presented.

When you read 1Co-2:1-16 you will see that it was not that they could not it was that they would not.

Although the gospel message is simple enough for a child to understand not all will accept it. Those that do are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and as we mature we come to understand the meaning of justification, sanctification, adoption, propitiation, election, inspiration, etc. For those that have rejected God these words, although they can look up meanings in a dictionary, mean nothing to them.

As a Christian we know God gives us new insights into old truths as we compare one part of Scripture with another. The unsaved man does not accept the things of the Spirit because he does not believe in them and they are foolishness to him. But as the Christian day by day receives the things of the Spirit, he grows and matures.

I agree that if we are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit then we are not His but the question then becomes when is one indwelt? Is it before or after they believe?

You seem not to have answered the fat that Paul not only says that the natural man cannot receive the things of God, but he also cannot even know them. How then can the natural man believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved? Is such a thing not a thing of God?"

 

[MrW]

@MrW, do you agree with SH that many are saved without hearing the gospel? Do you agree with him the gospel is not necessary for salvation?

If you do, that is all I need to know about your opinion of God’s Word.

Peace to you

I did not see where Silverhair said either of those two things. And no, I don't believe either of those, unless we're talking about babies and children too young or people too incapacitated to understand much of anything, much less believe the Gospel.

 

[MrW]

They think Calvinism IS Christianity.

What do you think it is? Buddism? Reply: No, Christianity is Christianity. Calvinism is Calvinism.

You know they came part way out of Catholicism.

No all came out of Rome Reply: You misunderstand me. Yes, all came out of Rome but they did not come ALL THE WAY OUT of Rome. For example, they baptize unbelievers (babies), like Rome.

Ask a Catholic if he is a Christian. He will answer, “I’m a Catholic.” He assumes Catholic and Christian are the same.

In a generic sense Reply: We agree there. They are Christian in a generic sense, but Catholicism and Christianity are not identical. For example, there are no offices of priest in the Bible for the church, no nuns, no popes, etc.

I hope we know being a Baptist is not always the same as being a Christian, even though it should.

So MRW, what would a "Baptist" be without being a Christian...a wet heathen? Reply: Yes. Or a wet generic. Surely you do not believe every person claiming to be a Baptist is actually saved? Therefore not a Christian, but yet a Baptist. Same with every denomination. I can say I'm the Wizard of Oz but that doesn't make it true.