Anything good from alcohol?

[Diggin in da Word]

Brother Bob,

Many would say that John the Baptist is not a good excuse for the case of abstinence, as he was a Nazarite from birth.

It is interesting that when going over the Nazarite vows, one can see that John may not have been a Nazarite as supposed.

The Nazarite vows were more than abstaining from wine and strong drink, they also could not cut their hair (we find no command that John was forbidden to cut his hair), they were forbidden to eat any thing at all from the vine (John was not given such command, although we know his diet was locust's and wild honey), they were forbidden to be near a dead body (I can not find that command given for John).

Zaccharias was not given instructions as to John following the Nazarite vows completely, so I do not believe verse 15 is referring to a Nazarite vow.

 

[saturneptune]

Brother Bob,

Many would say that John the Baptist is not a good excuse for the case of abstinence, as he was a Nazarite from birth.

It is interesting that when going over the Nazarite vows, one can see that John may not have been a Nazarite as supposed.

The Nazarite vows were more than abstaining from wine and strong drink, they also could not cut their hair (we find no command that John was forbidden to cut his hair), they were forbidden to eat any thing at all from the vine (John was not given such command, although we know his diet was locust's and wild honey), they were forbidden to be near a dead body (I can not find that command given for John).

Zaccharias was not given instructions as to John following the Nazarite vows completely, so I do not believe verse 15 is referring to a Nazarite vow.

Actually, you have no idea what instructions Zaccharias was given. All you know is what is in the Bible. That does not mean those are the total instructions given, unless of course you have a time machine and were there.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The instructions given to Zaccharias were written there in that first chapter of Luke.

IF it were a Nazarite vow, surely the Lord would have told him that John would be a Nazarite as he told Manoah's wife in Judges 13. 'He shall be a Nazarite'

The truth is, that is the only instance of God telling a mother that her son was to be a Nazarite.

One could take the Nazarite vow described in Numbers 6 on ones, own, but there is only one instance of one being a Nazarite from birth.

 

[annsni]

Ann;
Also, my neighbor made wine for years out of grapes and strawberries and it was all done by hand. So, I know firsthand that they do make wine by hand and its only through ignorance of those who do not know that statements are made such as yours. He certainly did not have a "wine press". We have proven on the other thread they made wine by hand in large quanities back in bibical times.

Brother Bob - Please do not call me ignorant for I am not. I totally agree that wine can be made by hand - and why I was saying that's probably how the Amish do it!! LOL - you know, they're not into modern conveniences and such!! Of course, they DO get around that by using propane and such so they could most certainly have a press but they're known for doing things the 'simple' way. I was just making a joke. Loosen up, brother!

Ann

 

[webdog]

Well Webdog;,
How many "good" experiences have you read about on this entire thread? I see another fight over whether you can "drink" acohol, but I haven't read not even "one so called experience" on the entire thread.

Hi Brother Bob... only a handful of good experiences until it got taken over by the same old tired arguments as in every other thread. I'm sorry if you fail to see one so called "experience".

Acohol is a tool of the devil regardless of what Helen says or anyone else. I think this is where teaching that Christians can drink moderately leads to and why it should not be taught. peace

Regardless of anyone...eh? What about the Lord of Hosts?
Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

There you go trying to make the non-fermented wine fermented. Get out of the 21st century mindset when reading the Word of God.

 

[annsni]

There you go trying to make the non-fermented wine fermented. Get out of the 21st century mindset when reading the Word of God.

Yayin means wine. In the OT it meant wine, and in the 21st century it means wine. The fact that it can burst wineskins, make someone drunk, clean wounds and kill germs mean that it's alcohol.

Ann

 

[Brother Bob]

So please, you folks, go fixate on something else which is doing far more harm to people. Are you afraid to talk about the damage sex outside of marriage does? The Bible isn't. Why not start a discussion on the joy of marriage, as a way of building up the body here and as an example to the evident thousands of readers who visit here?

Is this fixation on alcohol a different type of alcoholism?

Many times that is exactly what wine lead too. Shoot even the commercials tell us that.

 

[Brother Bob]

Hi Brother Bob... only a handful of good experiences until it got taken over by the same old tired arguments as in every other thread. I'm sorry if you fail to see one so called "experience".

Sorry Webdog; I don't even see the hand full but it did get taken over which I knew it would.

I am out of this argument.

 

[Gold Dragon]

There you go trying to make the non-fermented wine fermented. Get out of the 21st century mindset when reading the Word of God.

Do you know the function of wine on lees? It is for a second round of fermentation after the first round with yeast.

Wikipedia : lees

Wine Glossary : an A to Z of wine

Lees
A heavy sediment consisting of dead yeast cells and other solid matter such as grape pulp, pips and so on. Keeping the wine on the lees, especially if they are stirred from time to time, may be beneficial to the wine, imparting extra flavour and body. Eventually, however, they must be removed. This may be achieved by racking the wine off the lees. Residual solid matter may be removed by filtration.

Decanter.com : The route to all good wine

...
Once the fermentation has finished the yeast sinks to the bottom of the vat and forms a sediment (the 'lees'). Whilst resting on the lees wine can undergo a second transformation called 'malolactic fermentation'. In this process bacteria attack the malic acid (which has a sour, green taste) and convert it into lactic acid (which is softer and more buttery). Winemakers can now decide whether to encourage or block this transformation.
...

 

[Jerome]

Yayin means wine. In the OT it meant wine, and in the 21st century it means wine. ...it's alcohol.

and from a closed thread:

God is not a God of confusion and using the same word to mean two completely different things - and a very huge difference at that - is not in His character.

Fermentation does not make something completely different.

Translators regularly encounter single words that mean two different things in other languages.
Please consider the very different meanings of "know" in the Bible.
Or the meanings of the English word "cleave." A word like this is called a contronym.

Also, from the Jewish Theological Seminary website:
Biblical Hebrew contains a small number of words that bear antithetical meanings. These words are more than homonyms with dissimilar meanings like bear (to carry) and bear (the animal.) Their meanings are diametrically opposed to each other. Moreover, in English, homonyms usually derive fortuitously from different origins, whereas in biblical Hebrew the polarity of meanings seems to inhere by design in one and the same word.

 

[annsni]

and from a closed thread:


Fermentation does not make something completely different.

Translators regularly encounter single words that mean two different things in other languages.
Please consider the very different meanings of "know" in the Bible.
Or the meanings of the English word "cleave." A word like this is called a contronym.

Also, from the Jewish Theological Seminary website:
Biblical Hebrew contains a small number of words that bear antithetical meanings. These words are more than homonyms with dissimilar meanings like bear (to carry) and bear (the animal.) Their meanings are diametrically opposed to each other. Moreover, in English, homonyms usually derive fortuitously from different origins, whereas in biblical Hebrew the polarity of meanings seems to inhere by design in one and the same word.

Yet when you look up the definitions of the original word, there are multiple words listed - yet yayin means just one thing that I've found - wine. Yayin=wine I've not seen anywhere that says yayin=wine, juice, liquid from a grape.

 

[annsni]

I just looked up in the 1828 edition of Webster's Dictionary the definition of wine:

1. The fermented juice of grapes; as the wine of the Madeira grape; the wine of Burgundy or Oporto.

2. The juice of certain fruits, prepared with sugar, spirits, &c.; as currant wine; gooseberry wine.

3. Intoxication.

Noah awoke from his wine. Genesis 9.

4. Drinking.

They that tarry long at the wine. Proverbs 23.

Corn and wine, in Scripture, are put for all kinds of necessaries for subsistence. Psalm.

Bread and wine, in the Lords supper, are symbols of the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

John Kersey’s Dictionarium Anglo-Britannicum, or A General English Dictionary, published in London in 1708, says: "Wine, a liquor made of the juice of grapes or other fruits. Liquor or Liquour, anything that is liquid; Drink, Juice, etc. Must, sweet wine, newly pressed from the grape."

Benjamin Marin’s Lingua Britannica Reformata or A New English Dictionary, published in 1748, defines "wine" as follows: "1. the juice of the grape. 2. a liquor extracted from other fruits besides the grape.

 

[annsni]

John Kersey’s Dictionarium Anglo-Britannicum, or A General English Dictionary, published in London in 1708, says: "Wine, a liquor made of the juice of grapes or other fruits. Liquor or Liquour, anything that is liquid; Drink, Juice, etc. Must, sweet wine, newly pressed from the grape."

Benjamin Marin’s Lingua Britannica Reformata or A New English Dictionary, published in 1748, defines "wine" as follows: "1. the juice of the grape. 2. a liquor extracted from other fruits besides the grape.

Yes - wine is a liquid made from the juice of grapes. To get to the 'newly pressed from the grape", that is the 6th definition - certainly NOT the standard definition for the day. Besides, I do not have access to the full definition so I will not be taking that as 'gospel'. I understand where you got that definition and it is obviously edited from the dictionary. I wonder why? What did they remove?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Seems to me the definition changed somewhat from one century to another.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Yes - wine is a liquid made from the juice of grapes. To get to the 'newly pressed from the grape", that is the 6th definition - certainly NOT the standard definition for the day. Besides, I do not have access to the full definition so I will not be taking that as 'gospel'. I understand where you got that definition and it is obviously edited from the dictionary. I wonder why? What did they remove?

So, do you have an agenda? You just post the definitions that say it is alcohol. And don't have access to the other definitions? Amazing.

 

[annsni]

Seems to me the definition changed somewhat from one century to another.

But we don't have the full definition so it can not be conclusive.

 

[ACADEMIC]

Absolutely.

Most "pagans" know intuitively that the prohibitionist position is laughable and laugh at such persons as rediculous.

And most pagans associate such silliness with Christianity though they know intuitively that is problematic

So yes, having a few beers with some "pagans" has proven very productive at times. It busts up all their stereotypes of Christians of the sorts with beams in their eyes - Christians of the sort who will rant and rant and rant against having a few beers or some wine, which is Biblically permissiable, which is something most pagans know well in their God-given conscience.

"Wow, I thought all Christians were like those small-worlded, mean-as-the-devil, Baptists I grew up around."

"No, not at all, but I sure know what you mean!" :laugh:

So go ahead. Feel free to call me a friend of sinners and a drunkard. I will consider it a true honor.

--------------------------------------------------------

 

[Diggin in da Word]

We have the full definition in God's Holy Word. He plainly shows wine is both fermented and unfermented. The dictionaries both affirm this, historians affirm this and yet you and others want to deny it.