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Well, at least you can't kill me because of my opposition to PSA, as your spiritual ancestors would have done.

The word 'heretic' has come to mean an error or a damnable viewpoint, whereas it originally meant simply a minority view. The state churches killed people for such 'heresy'. Thankfully that's in the past.

That's a fair point.

I've been craving it for a long time.

I'm not sure that I believe what a person does in a 70-year life span deserves punishment without end.

When I listen to people like Dr. Hugh Ross and Dr. Stephen Meyer, I am absolutely convinced of God's existence -- and yet, that is head knowledge. I want personal, experiential knowledge.

A sentiment has been growing -- yes, even in evangelical circles -- that favors annihilation over eternal torment. Is it consistent with God's character -- his mercy, love, and justice -- to punish eternally?

Well, I was speaking about the destiny of the human spirit -- eternal torment, annihilation, or universalism.

That He is real first of all.

Anybody see any scriptural and/or early church support for it?

If I can't have tangible, I would be very happy if God would communicate with me in a way that my senses could perceive. Instead of some vague impression that might be God or might only be my conscience.

You will never get a PSA fanatic to admit they are wrong because if they did their whole house-of-cards made-up theology would crumble. They don't even use scripture honestly. When confronted with what Isaiah 53 actually says, as I did when I showed that a contrast was given by using the word...

Of course. But I need tangible.

The total absence of PSA from the first 1500 years of Christianity proves it is not the Gospel. That's why many of it's advocates try so hard to connect the doctrine to the early church when no connection exists -- without this manufactured and misrepresented connection, their house of cards...

But He's not here.

You said a mouthful.

Thanks. What you wrote encourages me. I had been wondering if I needed to find a Quaker or Mennonite church. But there are none in my area. Considering the variety that you just described, how would you know if you were in a church that taught actual PSA as the gospel?

I appreciate your efforts. I know I may be asking for something that is not 'logical'. I mean, communication with a spiritual being has to be different from communication with a flesh and bones person. But I guess I'm like the Apostle Thomas.

Okay, I get what you're saying. But if my wife only communicated with me the way people say God communicates with us, I wouldn't consider that my wife and I were communicating.

JonC, do you ever feel out of place in the Baptist denomination? You could join one of the Wesleyan churches and get a Governmental view of the atonement, although it is only marginally better than PSA, in my opinion.