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The irony of all this--is that I actually dont disagree with ur translation of Rev 13:8--being 'from'--its just that apo can also mean before, although pro is the normal Greek word for before--its even posible that Strong is wrong or put it in there b/c others felt it could be translated this...

Van I got the book sittn right in front of me & it does say that! I cant help it you dont have books but only online sources--but the fact is in the Greek dict section of Strongs on p 10 #575 apo--has before as 1 of the many possible translations, you can deny it all you want to---but I'm...

If it makes you feel any better Van—I don’t think finding 1 lexicon/concordance that has ‘before’ as a translation for apo—really disproves your overall idea about Rev 13:8—it just answered your challenge to find one that actually says its possible.

look at the book on p 10 in dict number 575 'apo'---"before" is right after b/c of (along with several other definitions)--I cant belive I'm looking at a Strongs right now-lol

Actually off the top of my head I remember Mr Strong (although I rarely use his concordance) having ‘before’ as one of the many definitions for apo. Remember Greek terms can have several meanings. But like I said Iactually agree that Rev 13:8 should be rendered 'from'.

gottcha---Admittedly apo is most often not translated as 'before', but it does have the possibility of this meaning. Although in Rev 13:8—‘from’ is certainly the better translation atleast imo. Hey does tht mean we actually agree on something--man what is this world coming to-:eek:

Van— And if your refering to Eph 1:4 (not sure) the preposition pro is used, not apo. Maybe I need to read the whole thread. But if your refering to Rev 13:8 apo is used & does mean from, in the sense that something has been in process from the begining of the world. When the preposition pro is...

While I’ll admit I appreciate your humor---I truly think your missing the point---To be honest it was when I was forced to translate Eph 1:3-14 for a Greek class that my ideas turned to reformed---I see your debating this passage in another thread--& honestly have to say your adding to the...

LOL—you poor victim Van—gettn picked on by the big bad Calvinist or in my case the rough neck Reformed! Van—how in the world you turn a compliment into evil attacks is beyond me—but for that matter so are most of your personal theories!;) Nevertheless, when you actually stick to the Bible &...

Just so you’ll know Van---although I disagree with this conclusion—I have no problem saying I agree to disagree with you-- when you simply make a statement & use Scripture to support it—its when you claim to have knowledge you don’t have & insist on using terminology you have no understanding...

John—I truly hope all is well (or at least as well as possible considering all that has recently taken place in Japan) & want you to know that we are truly praying for you & those around you during this time of hardship in your home land. Although we’ve never interacted in a thread before...

Believe me—no “ad homenims” will hide your ignorance of the Greek language at this point! Good luck with the debate---b/c your eisegesis will never amount to their ability to demonstrate legitimate biblical exegesis!

The bottom line is that the Calvinist interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is consistent with Greek grammar, whereas Van’s position simply rewrites the verse---wow—& I’m not even a full blooded Calvinist--yet its easy to see which side the Greek favors in this debate!

I would still like to know his academic training in Greek? So Van---if you’d be so kind---how many years of college Greek have you taken? It’s not that someone needs a college degree to be a good theologian/student of the Bible, but when someone insists that the answer lies in the Greek...

I don’t know if 2 years of post grad Greek would classify me as a “Greek scholar”---but I do know the language well—and all I can say about your post archangel is—very very good work!---by the way---how many years of Greek did you take in college Van? Just curious considering your so insistent...

You do realize I’m not a full-blooded Calvinist—I’m reformed—not sure what Calvinism has to do with this! And if you’ve ever read my posts—I’m very accepting of opposing view points to my own—but only if they are biblically plausible! You do have some ideas that are biblically plausible—but some...

I love how u handle a question by refusing to answer unless the person asking answers one of your questions first. And when they do answer you—you say they are incorrect & say you rely on Scripture not man mad theories. Yet what you really rely on-- is your own interpretation of Scripture—which...

Van u said- Please be more specific—about which Calvinist writers you’ve dissected—have you read Thomas Schreiner, Al Mohler, Bruce Ware, Douglas Moo, DA Carson, & believe their work can be classified as ‘shoddy’. Further-- If you don’t mind could you please list some theologians who you feel...

Van—I have no idea if that was directed at me—but I never once said (in a serious manner) that I was worried about you not liking me (I honestly could care less)—I’ve only said things so you know I’m not trying to pinpoint you personally & bully you. But since you are so well self educated would...

Van—I almost hesitate to say anything else to you—b/c I don’t wont you to think that I dislike you as an individual or that I’m out to get you—b/c I’m not—just be careful with some of your teachings—at times you have some very good & deep thoughts---However your conclusions & personal...