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I just wrote that these terms don't exclusively point to only some doctrines - it depends on context, right? :) Are you saying that in Eph 1:5 specifically, predestination is not applied unto salvation? I'd agree. Or are you taking this as your basis to generalize it as hence not being applied...

I take it you mean Eph 1:5 and not Rom 8:23. I'm not myself too stuck on the word 'predestined' itself - it simply means to determine something in advance. That 'something' could be anything - just so long as it's determined in advance, it can be said to be predestined. Christ's manner and...

I'd have to pause here to object to your method of debate here - I am not perturbed or offended by it, but simply raising the unfairness of how this dialogue has been moving along in the very remote case that you hadn't noticed and would've liked to have been made aware of. I've answered your...

I did write this earlier, right? I myself firmly deny unconditional predestined reprobation unto condemnation before the foundation of the world - I only affirm unconditional predestined election unto salvation. I've discussed the logical coherence elsewhere. The point is, predestined...

Just realized I marked "Agree" to your post's logic only to then realize you'd simply posted Scriptures as-is :Laugh

Sure. What would you like to discuss over John 6? I do not see it as a starting point for election given that there is no reference to election there - which is why I brought up Rom 11. I personally do not even quote v.44 as much as I do v.64-65 - since it is quite informative with the...

Are you seriously asking for an exact prooftext? :) I'm sure you're capable of putting 2 premises together logically - 1. There is a remnant of Israel that is saved - Rom 9:27 2. This remnant is according to the election of grace - Rom 11:5 What do you infer logically from the above? Paul...

I guess we are in the business of persuasion (at the least, that ought to be the intent on a debate forum). So, let's set out a template of conversing that would refrain from being overly defensive while actively seeking to engage each other's arguments. We could work our way up from the facts...

Good point. We all need some open-minded objectivity to receive things we hadn't thought of before, as long as it stands the test of truth. But what are those standards of truth - or are we disagreed on that itself to begin with? Just musing aloud... My 2 cents here is that calvinism is frowned...

This has been one the main points of disagreement here, yes. The point is, there are some verses that make plain sense for what it is even when read in isolation - some other verses seem plain in one place but throw contradictions elsewhere. Our interpretation must reconcile all such places as a...

But where have you seen me, ivdavid, sequence it this way or interpret it this way? That's my question. The statement was simply a rendition of Scriptures and as you said, there could be a right way to interpret it and a wrong way to interpret it as with anything - my question is how did you...

If it is God who said - Whosoever believeth in Christ will be saved and have everlasting life (Rom 10:11, 13, Jn 3:16) - then it's a true statement to say "God wills that they who believe shall be saved". If it is God who said in Jn 15:4 to abide in Him, then it is a true statement to say "God...

If that's what you got from what I'd said, that's unfortunate. Given the closure of the thread, I'd save clarifying my position for later - I simply believe God creates us anew through adopting us though we were first born in the flesh to Adam. I disagree with your position since it entails...

It's unfortunate that there'll be a break in the continuity of what we're discussing here given the closure of this thread - but I'd like to thank all who've desired to share your learnings from Scriptures on this topic. It's been new and refreshing to me - and has resolved a lot of open...

Agreed. And even if you were constructively argumentative, I wouldn't mind in the least - we are after all on a debate forum :) These are the things we are agreed upon. 1. I am presently a son/child of God, born of His Spirit, in the here and now. 2. I am an heir to a future inheritance, which...

Where have you seen this - please do tell me. This is precisely the point I'm making here - you go off on a rant assuming things about people you hardly know without ever taking the time/interest to inform yourself on their beliefs and reasons. So let me put you on the spot and call you out here...

Yes, I was asking if you would read what I'd posted earlier as total depravity? If not, which parts contained specifically here (and not whatever else you assume is being said) do you disagree with? I've added all relevant texts again for your reference below - In the fallen state, the free...

Yes, Sonship is a present reality and yes, inheritance is future. Where we're in disagreement is in you holding adoption to be in the context of inheritance and not sonship while I hold it just the other way round. The reasons are two-fold as already mentioned earlier in other posts. 1. The...

This is what I see for WH+ Strong's G5206 - "From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons)." I don't see the "unto" anywhere here that you're referencing...

No, not in a billion years !? Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without...