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sLets try it this way: A piece of cake is sitting in front of me right now. Here are my conflicting desires: 1. I like the taste of cake and it looks very good. 2. I'm hungry right now. 3. My 4 year old wants the last piece. 4. I'm trying to lose weight and want to be healthy. 5. There...

Translation: If you don't agree with my premise that desires determine decisions then I won't continue having a discussion with you about who determines our desires. Wow.... Ok, I've been doing this for a number of years now and have never ran across this approach. Now, for the sake of...

No, I'm suggesting that SOME Calvinists believe that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, including the very works of Satan in our midst, and they don't merely mean "allowing/permitting" either. Thus, if Satan is considered by some to be the 'most intelligent' of creatures, then that would...

I think if you do a search on this forum you will see that I defend John Calvin as a very smart and influential scholar. I also express my respect for many various Calvinistic scholars. I have just noticed a common trend when Calvinists react toward notable intellectual non-Calvinistic...

Ok, I concede. You believe that our choices are determined by our desires and we don't. Now, can you tell us what you believe determines our desires? :rolleyes: I can assure you that Heir and Winman would agree that my question gets to the heart of the problem with Compatibilistic...

You need to be specific. If you think I've said something that misrepresents Calvinism then quote my actual words and make an argument as to why you feel it is a misrepresentation. But, do keep in mind there are many different levels of Calvinistic thought. High Calvinism (sometimes called...

Funny you say that because the determinist would suggest that God is just as in control of Satan's doings as His own. Another great example of Calvinist's attempt to subvert any actual level of creaturely freedom, smart or otherwise. Thanks for the reminder!:thumbsup:

I find responses to threads like this both amusing and tiresome at the same time. Amusing because this is a soteriological debate forum which is created for the very purpose of such topics and tiresome because no one is forcing you to come here and read them, much less respond with replies that...

So by debating this point you are fighting his providence? How does your efforts here fit in with this view? So, you admit Calvinism's truth is not necessary for some? Ok. These would contradict your premise that it is totally of God because these points put it back onto man by suggesting...

Why do you suppose God would withhold this Calvinistic 'truth' from some of his Children and not others?

I've noticed that Calvinists can't seem to stand it when obviously smart and well respected believers are known to be non-Calvinistic. Men like AW Tozer, GK Chesterton, JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis and the like are examples of this. I stumbled upon this article where Piper attempts to adopt such...

I cannot even imagine how this question is not relevant to this point. :confused: You believe we choose based on our greatest desires, and we believe that we determine our greatest desires by choosing from among them. That point is established. Move on. The next question for our camp is...

Who, if not the choosing agent, determines that greatest desire? The ability to do otherwise doesn't deny there is a purpose in what is done, it only acknowledges the freedom of the will to follow another purpose if it so chooses. Do desires make determinations, or do people? What about...

Then why haven't you answered the question? Who determines what is the greatest desire? That is not avoiding the topic or a 'deviation.' It gets the very heart of the issue and I believe you actually know it. Which is another way of saying that desires make the choice. If a person must...

Just to add one point to the others. Compatibilists attempt to maintain a since of human freedom by defining it as, "Acting in accordance with ones desires." (i.e. A person is free if he is doing what he wants) But this just backs the problem up a step because they believe the desires and...

The answer you're avoiding is: GOD. God determines your greatest desire thus determining what choice you make. You avoid giving this answer because of the obvious culpability issues. No. I've told you already that I believe we choose from among our desires thus determining which is the...

Please answer this question: WHO determines what desire is the greatest? I believe we choose from among our desires thus we determine what desire is 'greatest.' You seem to think the desire makes the determination but you seem unwilling to answer the question above. I think we all know...

And who, if not you, determined what you wanted the most?

So, you believe one is made alive through the preaching of the gospel and then they believe it? But, didn't you argue in another thread sometime ago that someone could be regenerated causing them to seek God, or go to church or ask 'seeker' questions. Don't many people ask these types of...

Yes, and they responded. You do understand that we were hiding from God and that our sin had separated us from God, but because of his mercy he, God was seeking us...he does so through his ambassadors who are making an appeal to all mankind to be reconciled to God. Right. And he does the same...