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I agree with the gist of what you are saying, but I would just suggest not using the word 'understand' in place of the word 'affirm.' I believe man can understand truth but choose not to affirm it or act in accordance with it. Instead he can trade that truth in for lies...or refuse to accept...

Quantum, Willis, and WebDog, Having been a Calvinist I will say that I understand where they are coming from. When you first come to adopt the Calvinistic views (which do tend to emphasize the Glory of God and inability of man), you do feel as if your view of God is heightened. When compared...

You answer my question first: "Who, if not the choosing agent, determines that greatest desire?" So, you are admitting that God created the desire of Dahmer to molest, kill and eat children? This seems to ignore the fact that God created us in his image. Are you suggesting God is unable to...

12Strings, Do you believe it is possible for you to understand my position but reject it? Do you believe it is possible for me to understand your position but reject it?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle I do believe it is somewhat insulting to ASSUME the opposing party doesn't 'understand' simply because they disagree. Some make the mistake of assuming that if someone doesn't agree with a...

Many have equated the Open View with the denial of divine omniscience...

I agree.......and I don't believe anyone here would literally physically harm another believer, and we really shouldn't judge others intentions simply based upon our soteriological differences. We have much more in common than most others in the world.

Here is more from Piper that better expresses the point regarding the 'insult': We are just not intellectual enough to be "aware" of the "implications" of our view....

It wouldn't be insulting to you for me to suggest that because you are a Calvinist that you couldn't really understand the depth of God's glory or sovereignty? It should be. Who is getting personal and who is dealing with the topic? You are calling me immature, obstinate, silly, threatening...

Wow, I never expected these types of reactions, but they kind of support the premise of the OP, don't they? I've already admitted the OP wasn't worded the best, and I think 12strings is probably right to some degree regarding his point about neither side really liking having smart people...

I rest my case!!! :laugh:

No, if you read what I wrote you would see that I would rather not see God works being equated with Satan's by the insistence that both are equally ordained/controlled/predetermined by God. Let God be God and HIS ENEMIES be shattered, but don't try to make God into both Himself and His enemy...

Well, I'm not sure you could rightly call that grace "limitless," for even your statement concluded it is limited to his 'chosen ones.' :tear:

Well only a mentally ill person would chose something contrary to his desire, so I'm not denying that desires are involved. I just don't believe they are determinative. They aren't instinctive. Can you see the difference in an instinct and a desire? A carnivore instinctively desires meat...

I'm not arguing that I don't chose what I wanted. I'm arguing that my wants don't determine that choice, I do. I chose which of my many desires to act upon, so regardless of which desire I end up appeasing it certainly could be said I chose what I wanted. That doesn't mean the desire made the...

12strings and Herald, I will say I have seen no evidence from either of you which would suggest your unwillingness to learn from a non-Calvinistic believer. No more so than my unwillingness to learn from Calvinistic ones. (One look at my library or my podcast list is evidence of this) The OP...

More of an observation of those who have debated these points throughout history and the ways in which we respond to them today. There have been many such threads here, but I'm sure you rebuked all the Calvinistic leaning thread starters for doing the same, right? Oops, maybe not. :tongue3:

Not so. I could refuse and be shot. In fact I known of some who have done just that. That is why we are FREE creatures. A given set of circumstances cannot necessarily guarantee a certain response.

Winman, I don't think he is arguing that your greatest desire is to give away your wallet. He is arguing that you will always act upon your greatest desire and if that greatest desire is to remain alive in the face of a armed robber you will choose to give up your wallet. So, you do...

So, what made me desire that one the most, if not me? Oh, wait, you are boycotting sensible questions like that, never-mind. :BangHead: You talk as if my desire have a will of their own and have control over me in such a way that I must act in accordance with their beckon call. Again, you...