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I really was meaning the difference between 1 and 2 which is why I said, "Specifically, what is it that Person 2 knows or understands about the gospel that Person 1 doesn't?" I never suggested that we would or could come to any knowledge of God on our own. I'm suggesting that once God goes...

I still don't understand. Tell me the difference in these three people from your perspective. Person 1: This person has mental assent of the gospel but doesn't understand it. Person 2: This person has mental assent and understands the gospel but hasn't professed his faith in Christ yet...

It was just to say that there is more than one way to cheapen grace.

I have found in my own experience that there are those lost in the ditch of cheap grace, easy believism, entertainment focused, country club 'christianity' on the one side of the road, but equally as tragic, and maybe less obvious, is a ditch of lost souls on the other side of the road who fall...

Sorry, guys this thread is way past its page limit, but feel free to start a new thread...

I'm thinking much of this is a difference without a distinction. We all agree that everyone does sin and does need Christ, so whether or not we define that as being guilty from birth or merely prone to sin from birth, does it really matter that much? Is not the end result the same? The bigger...

He has a good point Winman.

How is that really any different from, "Calvinists teach that man is born so depraved he can't even understand truth plainly and clearly spoken in our own language in such a way as to believe it." Calvinists consistently quote 2 Cor. 2:14 to prove that lost people can't even understand the...

Well, the church has historically distinguished the nature of sin from the guilt of sin: "How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? the whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all...

I do believe in the doctrine of Original Sin, in that Adam was a representative for mankind, in the same way Christ was. The difference with me and Cals is that I am consistent in my belief because the same "all" represented by Adam is the same "all" represented by Christ. I do believe...

JBH, here it is, one more time, as clearly as I know how to say it: 1. I don't affirm 'total depravity' in the same manner that Calvinists do because I don't believe in 'inability.' But I do affirm depravity or original sin, in that all are born enemies of God, and in need of a savior...

...and the part of Total Depravity that denies the power of the gospel to accomplish its purpose. ('inability') God. I thought I was clear on that point? "God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." - Paul

Well, I don't believe in the part of total depravity which suggests that God's work to bring us the powerful Gospel appeal isn't sufficient to bring reconciliation. (i.e. total inability to believe the gospel.) I affirm the doctrine of original sin and human depravity, I just don't believe...

I thought so....just clarifying. Some here seem to say one thing and mean another, so you can never be too careful. ;) I agree. BUT... do you consider God's work in bringing man the gospel sufficient to 'bring understanding' or do you believe there must be some additional work to make the...

jbh, can you answer InTheLight's question?

But once revealed, they have no excuse for their rebellion against such truth, right? How is that different than with the revelation of the gospel? Or is it different from your view point?

But my argument is not that man's free agency MUST be similar to God's (though because we are created in his image and said to be like him in our knowledge of good and evil certainly suggest this), my argument is that an appeal to mystery in regard to THE CREATOR makes the appeal to mystery in...

If creatures cannot create thoughts then you are left with God creating the first sinful thought of Satan to rebel and attempt to become like God...and we know God is not the author of evil. So, either way you run into difficulty. I'd just prefer to run into the difficulty of not understanding...

Humor. Don't sell yourself short, you're good at making people laugh. :)

BTW, AresMan, that was one of the best, well worded, and reasoned arguments I have read here in quite sometime. Kudos my brother! And you didn't resort to ad hominem even once! My respect for you deepens and I do plan to address your masterful post, but please address my question above...