#2 Two Salvations? #3 Kingdom Exclusion

[J. Jump]

What has never been said is how much faith, obedience and overcoming is needed? How good is good? We can't know, so no, no believer can ever know they will not spend at least a thousand years in hell. This is hardly "The Good News".

Yes it has at least twice. But I guess you just care not to even look at it.

 

[J. Jump]

Their eyes are blinded to the truth so they will not see. Their ears are turned away so they will not hear.

A double amen to that!!

 

[J. Jump]

There is no PUNISHMENT in heaven; that is what you
got SAVED from: the punishment. Jesus Paid it ALL, not most
and you have to pay more.

Then I don't have to confess my sins Ed? If so what would be the purpose to confess something that is already taken care of? Why do I need to remind God of something that He said has been removed as far as the east is from the west?

And no one else can show me with Scriptural proof, so maybe you can. Where does the Bible say that discipline of a believer ends with death?

If all my sins have been paid for and are forgiven them why am I chastened or disciplined for something that is already forgiven. That just doesn't even make sense.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I think it is quite sad that Gods lies about nothing seperating us from the love of God. He will never leave us not Forsake us. I have carved you into the palms of my hand and niether shall any man pluck them out!

These are promises of eternal security WITH Christ. Never to be seperated from Him. The Spirit of God will never leave us -will He be in Hell to? I doubt it!

You can not seperate any beleiver from God for any amount of time. It will make God a liar according to His promises, inept in His ability to justify, sanctify, and cleans you from ALL unrighteousness, and makes Him powerless to sustain and maintian any convenant.

I love my wife.

We are together.

Yet, she is 5,000 miles from here. She's been gone for three months, and it will be at least a month before I'm there, and maybe as long as three more months.

Do I love her less? Yes.

Are we separated? No.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

When I said having eyes to see and ears to hear they see and hear not, the one who said amen was one of the ones I was speaking of.

See how blind they are?

My wife just reminded me of something...

Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. If part of the body of Christ is being cast into hell (Christ, an amputee?? God forbid!!) then hell has indeed prevailed over the very thing Jesus said hell could not do!

Another reason the kingdom exclusion doctrine is heresy.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So after starting a work in the believer our Saviour is unable to finish the job and keep us with him eternaly ???????

And after we are conformed to his image we are not fit for the kingdom???????


1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Like Christ yet not fit for the kingdom ??????

OK, you've posted some verses. Let's take a quick look at them. To start out, let's look at Philippians 1:1:

Phi 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

It's to all the saints along with the bishops and deacons. It's not to every person who is saved. (Although, it's quite interesting that the bishops and deacons are separated...) It's to those who have something that shows they are being fruitful. Now, if you hold to the fallacy that our spiritual salvation is proved by our works, then you are going to assume that all saved people are saints (except for bishops and deacons, I guess), and you're going to have contradictions within the Scriptures.

Romans 8:29 is something that can be dealt with later. I want to keep this post short. But, suffice it to say that this passage is talking about election, not salvation. There are many potholes in the "Romans Road" if you try to apply it to spiritual salvation.

As for 1 John, let me ask you a couple of questions:

What's the meaning of "life"?

What's the meaning of "fellowship"?

1 John 3:3 says, "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

What are we (the writer is including himself in this statement) hoping for? Are you hoping that you're saved?

I'm not hoping that I'm saved; I know that I'm saved. I'm hoping for glory in that wondrous age that is yet to come. I'm hoping that I will find myself approved. I'm hoping that I will endure to the end.

Why? Because I've been promised that if I believe on the Lord Jesus I will be saved. Not that I might or might not be saved. But, I've also been promised that if I endure and if I persevere until the end (conditional; works are involved), that he is faithful to reward me for such.

The wages of sin is death. The wages of righteous living, are crowns; an abundant entrance into his coming Kingdom.

We're saved by "believe", but we are to live our lives by "faith". If we're faithful; if we continue in believing; if we endure - we can have an entrance into his coming Kingdom and participate in it fully.

 

[J. Jump]

When I said having eyes to see and ears to hear they see and hear not, the one who said amen was one of the ones I was speaking of.

So now you are just into subtle slander. You must be so proud of yourself :laugh: I just love it when you all come up with these statements that the VERY same thing can be said right back at you!

Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.

And ultimately that will be true, but to understand that is to dig even deeper into God's Truth so there is no use into going into the details of that, becuase you don't want to even get away from the pebbles that are on the surface.

 

[Hope of Glory]

There is no difference in pretending they are not there, than pretending God's promises to the saved do not apply to everyone, except your select group that believes this false doctrine.

What promises has God made to the unsaved?

What promises has God made to the unsaved that are conditioned upon their works?

That is what you believe isn't it?
Can we that don't interpret the scripture the way you do, enter the kingdom?

I don't know, but I think so, based on the Scriptures. It has been asked me before whether I think that someone who believes that salvation can be lost can be saved? After all, they think their salvation is based upon works (if you can lose it by works, it's still by works), so are they truly believing on the finished work of Jesus on the cross? I don't know the answer to that either. But, even if someone fails to see the Kingdom teachings, and they life a faithful life, certain rewards have been promised. Do you have to know about them in order to recieve them? I don't know.

However, I know that God has said that many people are blinded to the Kingdom, many, such as the Pharisees have shut their own eyes to these teachings. They require accountability instead of being a license to sin. Is OSAS true? Yes. But, it's not a license to sin any more than being a child of Moses was a license to sin.

I do know that I have been blessed in teaching the Kingdom at the church where I'm currently preaching. The former pastor, who was a good Baptist seminary graduate, started seeing that there was a difference between the Kingdom and salvation because he started looking at "contradictions" in the Scripture. However, he had only context to go on. When I arrived on the scene (due to a "coincidence" of severe injuries, etc., that kept me from the pastorate that I was headed for), I was able to show him grammar to go along with that context. (I'm still amazed to this day that there are seminaries that don't require Greek!) The two complement each other very well, and when you let the Scripture speak for itself, the only contradictions that you get is between the text and the cemetaries... I mean seminaries. (Some Baptist seminaries still teach Kingdom truths, but most stick with things that are more appealing to the masses.)

Does that mean that if he had not discovered this through the Holy Spirit's guidance that he would not be permitted an abundant entrance? He lived a faithful life before, as did many of the people at church. But, he and others have stated to me that they are much more blessed being able to know, instead of having to guess.

I would request that instead of looking at what we are showing alone, look at what those who teach that salvation can be lost alongside what we are teaching. Look at the study that I posted on the Salvation of the Soul. Compare it to the Scriptures that are posted with it. Don't take my word on it, see what God has to say! That's one reason that in my sermons, we turn to a lot of passages of Scripture. I don't want anyone to trust me; I want to show it to them in the Bible! If it's not there, it's just my opinion and is worth about as much as the bandwidth that it takes up. But, if it's there, it's the Word of God!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Sure does...but it does not say that these people are saved individuals. The Bible tells us that God's Children are joint heirs with Christ, so it should be obvious that those who do not inherit the kingdom are not children.

OK, let's assume that your argument is valid. What about a Christian who commits murder? What about one who lives in adultery? What about them?

Was Christ bruised for our iniquities...or wasn't He? Saved people are capable of working iniquity, but Christ's blood covered that. He chastens those in that state...not abandons them!

Who, besides yourself (and I believe Diggin) has said anything about abandoning anyone?

 

[Hope of Glory]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
(11) For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) If any man builds [works] on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
(13) his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
(14) If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward [conditional].
(15) If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

in context... only the wood, hay and straw will be burnt.
Useless works done by the unfaithful.... unless the faithful does useless works.... which would make even less sense.

Faithful or unfaithful is exactly the context. If you are an unfaithful worker, your works will be burned up. If you are a faithful worker, your works will survive. Spiritual salvation is not based upon the faith or lack of faith of the individual; it is based upon the faithfulness of the Lord Jesus, and his faithfulness is perfect. But, your reward is based upon your faithfulness.

 

[Hope of Glory]

See thats just it... I don't beleive every Christian will receive a crown... they may be there but be crownless....

Then, what exactly do you see as an "entrance" into the Kingdom? If one is there with no crown; no authority to rule and reign...

And why are you using guilt and fear to motivate Christians to serve God...That is what this boils down to...

It's much more joyous to serve out of love, but if one chooses to serve out of fear is he serving any less.

I had a woman tell me one time, "I serve the Lord because I love him"! Well, I love him too, and that's why I serve him. Yet, he esteemed the things that he's offereing enough to offer them conditionally, I should esteem them enough to want to meet those conditions. Why would I want to insult the Lord by esteeming not the things that he esteems?

Scare them into serving him...
God wants people to serve him not out of fear, but Love.
Love based on who He is and what He has done.

Amen! However, if one chooses to serve out of fear or obligation, is he serving any less? Isaac was the child of promise, and as such, he recieved great rewards; however, most people forget that Ishmael, the child of the law, while his inheritance was much less than Isaac's, he still had an inheritance, and it was in the land.

That is works...

Amen! So, it's obviouly not talking about being saved or staying saved or proving you're saved, is it?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

If salvation does not mean being saved from the fires of hell, or from the lake of fire, what is one being saved from?

 

[James_Newman]

If salvation does not mean being saved from the fires of hell, or from the lake of fire, what is one being saved from?

Who said that wasn't what salvation meant? All we said is they are two different salvations. Being saved in eternity from the lake of fire does not automatically mean you will not experience hell during the kingdom.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Joh 3:16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

"Perish" is used in both instances. Does it mean the same thing in both places? Exactly....

Two statements, one question: In the example that James gave, "perish" is a present tense.

In John 3:16, "believe" is a present, active, participle; the action can be stopped. What happens if the one who is believing stops believing? Do they become unsaved?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Let's all just sweat it out, huh?

Pretty good definition of "with fear and trembling".

 

[webdog]

See that statement right there doesn't even line up with Scripture. If so then there will be saddness and regret in eternity. Scripture paints quite the opposite picture. There is going to be no saddness and no regret when eternity begins.

Even your own arugments testify against you. Of course people are going to care. That is why it is said there is going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth. And that's why it says that God will wipe away all tears.

Where does it say there will be no regret? What tears will God wipe away if there is no regret? For the believer, eternity begins the moment of the rapture.

 

[webdog]

I love my wife.

We are together.

Yet, she is 5,000 miles from here. She's been gone for three months, and it will be at least a month before I'm there, and maybe as long as three more months.

Do I love her less? Yes.

Are we separated? No.

I hope this was a typo. If not, I hope your wife doesn't frequent the BB :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Yes it has at least twice. But I guess you just care not to even look at it.

Now you are being less than truthful. Your reply was to just be ready, that there is no way to know.

 

[webdog]

OK, let's assume that your argument is valid. What about a Christian who commits murder? What about one who lives in adultery? What about them?

If they put their faith in Christ, they are saved.

 

[webdog]

Two statements, one question: In the example that James gave, "perish" is a present tense.

In John 3:16, "believe" is a present, active, participle; the action can be stopped. What happens if the one who is believing stops believing? Do they become unsaved?

It makes no difference if the action can be stopped, a covenant takes two sides to be broken, and God will not break His, unless you don't believe in OSAS.