3 classes of People

[webdog]

With no time, there is no place. The whole over all things is made-up of time, space and matter. Matter occupies a place for a given time. You are a person that takes up space in Gods universe, made of flesh and bones (matter) and will last only a short time and be gone.

This is false. God is not bound by time...but still is in all places. You are limiting God's sovereignty by claiming such, and are putting a human understanding to it.

Agree. This is what makes your view supralapsarian. This is why most Calvinist hold up Gods decrees. God must have decree or we are just a puppet of the Puppet Master. Remove time, you remove decrees, for decree is not needed. With no time, all actions just become, for God makes and does at the same moment with no thought of time or man. God only KNOWS and then MAKES..and that is it...if we remove time from His work.

This makes my view supralasparian...how?

With no time, there is nothing to give. Why give anything when it happens as it is made. With no time..God just MADE!! Again..supralapsarianism

What does time have to do with giving? The calvinist even claims before the foundation of the world, God gave His "elect" salvation. Nice assumption...but with no Scriptural proof.

With no time 1st there would be noone to believe. If God did make, and there was no time, He would have to make the action to believe as he made the mass of matter. For no time would pass, and no changes would happen, unless the change was part of the creation. Change only happens in TIME!! If no time passes..there is no change. This is again why Must Calvinist hold to Gods powerful decree that shows a plan and design...not a Puppet Master.

Now your are really reaching. I'm not understanding what you believe about God's omnipotence and omnipresence. You are holding God to time...our time, and all conditions about God, man, and His creation to these.

((because He exists in all times...all at the same time))
In your view..you cannot say this. All you can say is...God exist.

I can...and I did. To deny this is to deny God's omnipresence...and to deny God's omnipresence to deny God's deity. Your view is the view I would be very careful trying to defend.

 

[Brother Bob]

Andy;
Act 15:18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 

[Brother Bob]

Npet;
Don't you believe in an all knowing God?

 

[Andy T.]

God's omnipresence, omnipotence. I don't think any Scripture has either word, but if God isn't both...He's not God.

Of course, all orthodox believers hold to both of those attributes of God (and there is plenty of Biblical support for such), but delving further into it - what Scriptural basis do you cite that all times (past, present, future)exist to God in the same manner? What evidence is there that the future actually "exists" in the same way that the present exists? And the same question applies to the past - how does it exist right now to God? And how do we know this from the Bible?

 

[Salamander]

The verses you used only show that believing is the precedent to salvation.raying:

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Brother Bob]

Npet;
I change nothing and neither does God for He says "I change not".
God sees all things at once. He is an all knowing God. He sees the beginning and the end and everything in between. God is Omnipresent and infinite.

 

[Salamander]

Of course, all orthodox believers hold to both of those attributes of God (and there is plenty of Biblical support for such), but delving further into it - what Scriptural basis do you cite that all times (past, present, future)exist to God in the same manner? What evidence is there that the future actually "exists" in the same way that the present exists? And the same question applies to the past - how does it exist right now to God? And how do we know this from the Bible?

God requireth that which is past. If the past wasn't existent to God then He couldn't require it or anything in it. Why, by your inclusion in the premise you've suggested, then Jesus being the Propitiation for sinners couldn't be counted to please God.raying:


raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Brother Bob]

The verses you used only show that believing is the precedent to salvation.raying:

It shows God sees who believes and sees who does not and according to His Commandment in Romans:

Acts, chapter 16
"27": And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

"28": But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

"29": Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Call it what you want but God commanded it. You must believe! To deny that is to deny the Scripture.

 

[Brother Bob]

How did Jesus stand as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world If God could not see all

Act 15:18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 

[webdog]

Of course, all orthodox believers hold to both of those attributes of God (and there is plenty of Biblical support for such), but delving further into it - what Scriptural basis do you cite that all times (past, present, future)exist to God in the same manner? What evidence is there that the future actually "exists" in the same way that the present exists? And the same question applies to the past - how does it exist right now to God? And how do we know this from the Bible?

Omnipresence
OMNIPRES'ENCE, n. s as z. [L. omnis, and presens, present.]

Presence in every place at the same time; unbounded or universal presence; ubiquity (Existence in all places or every where at the same time) . Omnipresence is an attribute peculiar to God.

Omnitemporal is an extension of this, and cannot be excluded.

 

[Andy T.]

Andy;
Act 15:18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

That verse shows God's omniscience, but it just says "he knows" - it doesn't say he exists at all time in the same way.

 

[Brother Bob]

Webdog;
The are arguing against their own belief. They are the ones who has been quoting "foreknown, foreknew, predestinated and now they hear the truth of the matter they want to get rid of those words.

Hebrews, chapter 13
8: Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi, chapter 3

6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

All I have heard is "foreknew" and now they don't want to accept it.

 

[webdog]

That verse shows God's omniscience, but it just says "he knows" - it doesn't say he exists at all time in the same way.

Different word, but you can't have one "omni" without the rest, and vice versa.

 

[webdog]

Webdog;
The are arguing against their own belief. They are the ones who has been quoting "foreknown, foreknew, predestinated and now they hear the truth of the matter they want to get rid of those words.

It's because in order to go by a man made theological system...you need to abide by man made presuppositions, and hold God to man's time. Funny...and they are the one's who so diligently fight for God's sovereignty...while limiting it the most.

 

[Andy T.]

Omnipresence
OMNIPRES'ENCE, n. s as z. [L. omnis, and presens, present.]

Presence in every place at the same time; unbounded or universal presence; ubiquity (Existence in all places or every where at the same time) . Omnipresence is an attribute peculiar to God.

Omnitemporal is an extension of this, and cannot be excluded.

O.k., I guess the gist of the question is how do you defend Omnitemporalness from Scripture? Omnipresence does not automatically lead to Omnitemporalness. One can hold that God is everywhere at once in the present, but since only the present exists right now, it does not mean that God exists in the future (or past) which do not exist right now.

 

[webdog]

O.k., I guess the gist of the question is how do you defend Omnitemporalness from Scripture? Omnipresence does not automatically lead to Omnitemporalness. One can hold that God is everywhere at once in the present, but since only the present exists right now, it does not mean that God exists in the future (or past) which do not exist right now.

...ubiquity (Existence in all places or every where at the same time)

Are you saying God only exists in the "now"? This sounds more arminian than anything (God forsees time...but does not exist there).

 

[Andy T.]

If you can show to me that the future exists "now", I will believe that God exists there. Same with the past - if you can show me that the past exists "now", God surely exists there. Can you show me this from Scripture - that the past, present and future all exist now?

Rev. 4:8 - "who was, who is, and who is to come" - it doesn't say, "who is, who is and who is."

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Webdog,

This is false. God is not bound by time...but still is in all places. You are limiting God's sovereignty by claiming such, and are putting a human understanding to it.

Gen 1:1...In the beginning God...

If you say one more word in the verse..time passes. If God MAKES, this changes space. In order to have change time must pass. If you say the next word, you now have matter and time. If you do not, you only have God...and not place.

This makes my view supralasparian...how?

With no time, all actions just are.

What does time have to do with giving? The calvinist even claims before the foundation of the world, God gave His "elect" salvation. Nice assumption...but with no Scriptural proof.

to give means something has changed. If I do not have then I have..time has past between when I had not and now having. Change can not happen without time.

Yes..and Calvinist work within Gods plan.

Now your are really reaching. I'm not understanding what you believe about God's omnipotence and omnipresence. You are holding God to time...our time, and all conditions about God, man, and His creation to these.

Its clear...God does work within time. Time as he sees it, is not as we see it. One day is like a 1000 years. 1000 Years is a time frame. To us..its long. To God..not much.

I can...and I did. To deny this is to deny God's omnipresence...and to deny God's omnipresence to deny God's deity. Your view is the view I would be very careful trying to defend.

You can't..for you say God has not time. I can...For I know God works within time.

 

[webdog]

Gen 1:1...In the beginning God...

If you say one more word in the verse..time passes. If God MAKES, this changes space. In order to have change time must pass. If you say the next word, you now have matter and time. If you do not, you only have God...and not place.

...and this was written to...

With no time, all actions just are.

Ahh...maybe this is the misunderstanding. I never said there is no time, but God is not bound by it.

Its clear...God does work within time. Time as he sees it, is not as we see it. One day is like a 1000 years. 1000 Years is a time frame. To us..its long. To god..not much.

Did I ever say that God doesn't work within time? Not being bound by it, doesn't mean God can't be within it.

You can't..for you say God has not time. I can...For I know God works within time.

Again, I never said this, and I do agree that God does work within time, too.

 

[Brother Bob]

According to what they say now God didn't see His son die.