I'm sure you are willing to expand on "Mr. Ton-of-bricks" and explain.
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A Person, with a Weapon, Breaks into Your Home....
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I'm sure you are willing to expand on "Mr. Ton-of-bricks" and explain.
"Show me a picture of a mind." - Same kind of logic.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
No, I am not the one who posted that verse. And no, I wasn't talking about that post. I am talking about the post where I quoted all the verses in that link that was given, and talked about them all.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
I've searched, and I've searched. But I cannot find that verse that says "Vengeance is thine, repay saith the Lord"
There is a difference between defense and vengeance.
This is a misunderstanding and misapplication of "grace vs law."
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
If the law was "done away with," then we would not have Paul reciting commandments we should be performing.
Rather, as scripture tells us, the law is our schoolmaster to show us we cannot attain salvation ourselves; that salvation must come from Christ.
It is not a curse to attempt to live by the law; it is a curse to believe that living by the law, we will be saved.
I offer you John 10.
Are we not all part of the "flock"? Are we not referred to as His "sheep"? Are we not charged to look after the "flock" and thus be stewards of that which He has given us?
John 10 tells us that Jesus likened Himself to a shepherd that lay down in the gate to keep the wolves from attacking and killing the sheep. Throughout scripture, the shepherd and sheep analogy is used.
Let us be clear: scripture never talks about "seeking/hunting" wolves; but protecting the flock is abundantly clear. Further, Ephesians 5 tells us that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church; when coupled with the passage in John 10 where Jesus says He is the gate (think about the shepherd) and would lay down His life for the sheep...should we strive for that example? Should we be good stewards? Or should we allow that which we've been given to be spoiled, or killed?
Shepherds may have to kill wolves or lions to protect the sheep, just as David did. There is no joy in this; we trust God to keep the wolves and lions away. But if they do come, we have our crook or our staff. We are not expected to merely watch as the sheep are slaughtered and eaten.
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Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
As I've already said, vengeance does not equal justice. Vengeance does not equal defense.
Not every little detail in life's adventures are covered by specific chapter and verse. This is one of those things that is a personal responsibility as a partner in marriage. I would not go so far as carrying a firearm on my person or even having a weapon in my home to possibly shoot another human. Maybe we should wear bullet-proof vests too! no, I refuse to live out my life in fear of what may be.
We, in Canada, are experiencing the results of far too many personal weapons available in the public in the larger cities such as Toronto. Another law is not the answer. These weapons are all illegal. Another senseless law just imposes itself on the innocent. Continue to teach moral values in society starting at home with our own children,,,,,and with new citizens when they enter the country.
Cheers,
Jim
We, in Canada, are experiencing the results of far too many personal weapons available in the public in the larger cities such as Toronto. Another law is not the answer. These weapons are all illegal. Another senseless law just imposes itself on the innocent. Continue to teach moral values in society starting at home with our own children,,,,,and with new citizens when they enter the country.
Cheers,
Jim
saturneptune
New Member
The mind of Christ does not conceive of a father, husband standing idley by and watching someone torture, rape, or kill his family. Absolutely not. I have never been to one day of seminary, or been paid one penny for any Christian ministry, and I know better. You should also.
saturneptune
New Member
Who hasn't? Every town in America has a "bad" section. People who have not experienced rough crowds would be in a sheltered world that is not real
I would venture to say many have seen gun play, some on the battlefield. What does that have to to with protecting your family?
Christ making all things new would not result in that conclusion. It would strengthen a person's commitment to their family and protect them. What it would change is the motivation. Your comment "take by force" is indeed an unsaved attitude. That has nothing to do with protecting your family, which sir, is your God given duty.
Apples and oranges mixed with a strawman. You are not returning evil for evil. This is not an issue of having the last word or getting even. It is the lives of your children and wife!!!! If I was staying with you overnight and someone broke in, I would risk my own life to stop them, and I am not even related.
This has nothing to do with suffering persecution, or being the martyr of the week. If you have so little respect for yourself that you let someone do that to you, that is one thing. It goes to a whole new level when you do that to your family.
Do you have scripture to back that up?
There is scripture about:
Going the extra mile ...
Turning the other cheek ...
Loving your enemy ...
Return good for evil ... [remember how the Amish reacted to the murder of their children in their school?]
It takes a far braver person to face down danger than to participate in violence.
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Far to many people think that provision only means flipping burgers in order to pay the bills. It is far more than that.
1Ti 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (ESV)
The context of the above verse is the teaching on care for widows. The greater context is care for all people, especially fellow believers. A key way we obey this is through physical things. We provide food, shelter, and implied in that is a safe environment so that they cannot be exploited by others. we have a similar command given to the Jews in the OT.
Deu 22:8 "When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring the guilt of blood upon your house, if anyone should fall from it.
The culture that this was written to considered the roof as an additional part of their living space. This created a situation where someone could accidentally fall and be injured or killed. We don't usually build houses that use the roof as another room. We do, however, see the principle of the need applied to our lives and culture. We keep sidewalks clear of snow and ice in the winter. We provide food and drink to family and to visitors. This is not only hospitable. It also meets a real need. We provide a safe place for our family to live and sleep, as well as welcome in visitors when needed. This includes a provision for physical safety. Generally this includes the basic step of locking doors. In some cases people use alarms, security lights, dogs, and yes even guns.
When the wall, and Jerusalem, were being rebuilt the threats were treated as real. Some worked rebuilding, and others stood guard. Weapons were readily available to provide security and repel an attach. God did not demand they leave their swords at home, or sell them. Lot did not sin by protecting the two angels disguised as men. David did not sin in killing Goliath. Samson's sin was not killing Philistines. He even asked God for the strength to take more with him when he died, and God did it. Christ will also bring an army of saints to wage war in the future. It will be a literal, and bloody, battle.
1Ti 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (ESV)
The context of the above verse is the teaching on care for widows. The greater context is care for all people, especially fellow believers. A key way we obey this is through physical things. We provide food, shelter, and implied in that is a safe environment so that they cannot be exploited by others. we have a similar command given to the Jews in the OT.
Deu 22:8 "When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring the guilt of blood upon your house, if anyone should fall from it.
The culture that this was written to considered the roof as an additional part of their living space. This created a situation where someone could accidentally fall and be injured or killed. We don't usually build houses that use the roof as another room. We do, however, see the principle of the need applied to our lives and culture. We keep sidewalks clear of snow and ice in the winter. We provide food and drink to family and to visitors. This is not only hospitable. It also meets a real need. We provide a safe place for our family to live and sleep, as well as welcome in visitors when needed. This includes a provision for physical safety. Generally this includes the basic step of locking doors. In some cases people use alarms, security lights, dogs, and yes even guns.
When the wall, and Jerusalem, were being rebuilt the threats were treated as real. Some worked rebuilding, and others stood guard. Weapons were readily available to provide security and repel an attach. God did not demand they leave their swords at home, or sell them. Lot did not sin by protecting the two angels disguised as men. David did not sin in killing Goliath. Samson's sin was not killing Philistines. He even asked God for the strength to take more with him when he died, and God did it. Christ will also bring an army of saints to wage war in the future. It will be a literal, and bloody, battle.
saturneptune
New Member
How about 1 Timothy 5:8. That is all that is needed. A little common sense helps also. I cannot believe the total disregard the number of people on this board, who have been trained in the Scripture at seminary, are leaders of a local church, that have this mindset. I am not believing my eyes. Turning the cheek, loving your neighbor, the sixth commandment, is not applicable in this case. Crabby, I usually respect your posts, even though we do not agree politically. Quite frankly, I am very surprised by your posting. Do you recall the verse about casting pearls to swine?
If you believe God gave us a brain, then you must believe He expects us to use it.
Our relationship with our spouses is like Christ to the Church. I doubt the Lord is going allow Satan or anyone else to destroy His church without stopping it.
Here is a good article I came across:
HomeWhy Carry?Is It Biblical?
AdviceJoin CCCLobbyLinksIs Carrying a Concealed Weapon Biblical?
Many Christians question whether or not the Bible allows the carrying of a concealed weapon. They usually bring up many excuses which they consider to be strong arguments against guns.
1. Shouldn’t we trust God to protect us? Yes, we should. Prayer to keep us safe should be our first line of defense. However, God also gave us the ability to think and reason. Recognizing that we live in a dangerous world, we should take appropriate steps to protect ourselves. The apostles did so. At the Last Supper, it is interesting to note that at least two of the apostles were carrying swords (Luke 22:38). Swords were the main weapon of Jesus time. Jesus apparently allowed them to be carried for self defense. Then, just as now, there was a criminal element intent on harming people. Jesus never told the apostles not to pack weapons. Even in one of Christianity’s most sacred moments (the Last Supper), weapons were present.
2. Thou Shall Not Kill. This comes from the Ten Commandments. The only version of the Bible to translate it as the word “kill” is the King James. All modern translations use the correct word “murder.” There is a clear distinction between these two words. It is clear that we should not murder. However, God allows for His people to kill if it is justified. In fact, God directed Israel to send armies into battle many times, and kill their opponents. If the commandment read “thou shall not kill,” then God commanded his people to violate His own commandment many times. Since we know this cannot be, then it must be understood as “murder.” Concerning concealed carry, we shoot in order to ‘eliminate the threat,’ not to kill, although sometimes this may be the outcome.
3. “We are supposed to ‘turn the other cheek.’” If we are being persecuted for our faith, this statement is absolutely true. However, if we are being car-jacked, or robbed at gunpoint, this is violent crime. If your family is in danger, and your son is shot, are you supposed to say, “there’s my daughter, shoot her too”? Of course not. On the contrary, just like the apostles, packing a weapon to protect your family from criminals is both prudent and Scriptural.
4. “The police will protect me.” Before you even begin dialing 911 on your cell phone, you may be shot. When a gun is present, seconds count. Unfortunately, the police are minutes away. They will arrive after the crime is committed. Last year, a concealed carry person shot a bad guy during an attempted robbery. The ambulance arrived in about five minutes. The police finally showed up 45 minutes later. If he had not been carrying a gun, he may have been shot, or even killed.
In reality, there are no good Christian arguments against carrying a concealed weapon. During Biblical times, there was a criminal element who sought to harm law-abiding citizens. Jesus did not forbid his disciples from carrying the weapon of their day (swords). In fact, even Jesus took precautions. In John 2:23-25, we read,
“During the time he was in Jerusalem, those days of the Passover Feast, many people noticed the signs he was displaying and, seeing they pointed straight to God, entrusted their lives to him. But Jesus didn't entrust his life to them. He knew them inside and out, knew how untrustworthy they were. He didn't need any help in seeing right through them.”
Sure, Jesus could have defended himself, but he took precautions to avoid bad situations. When people conceal carry, the first line of defense is avoidance of the situation, just like Jesus did. If avoidance is not enough, it is prudent to be prepared by carrying a weapon.
In the United States, we have the right, through the Second Amendment, to arm ourselves for our protection. Christians generally believe that the Constitution was written by men of God, under the guidance of their Christian beliefs. Given the dangerous world we live in, the Christian should seriously consider exercising their God-given right to bear arms. In fact, to not arm yourself for self-defense could be a sin. 1 Timothy 5:8 says,
"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
Providing food, clothing, and shelter for your family is great, but to turn around and refuse to provide a proper defense against criminals is also failure to provide for your family. If Jesus allowed his disciples to be armed for protection, so can modern day Christians be armed.
© 2009 Christians for Concealed Carry
P. O. Box 653, Springfield, OH 45501
Email: admin@concealedcarrychristian.com
did God say that there was BOTh a time for peace, and for war?
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Stephen was adopted into God's family and became a son. One day he was stoned for his profession of faith and his preaching of Christ. Did God intervene?
Peter was crucified upside down... did God intervene?
All of the Apostles, except John, were martyred. Did God intervene?
Why not? He said He was their Father.
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Show me an example of Jesus where his actions would show approval of the killing of another. It appears to me that you are making very liberal interpretations of scripture.
In the OT and that involves governments. To try to apply that to an individuals life within his/ner home is to make a very liberal interpretation.
God sanction just wars, and he also appoved the death penaly for capital Crimes!
And God says you are to treat foreigners living in your land as well as you treat those born there.
I see nowhere that Jesus sanctions war.
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