A question about God's justice

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Scriptures tell me it is by believing that we are regenerated

The Scriptures tell me that upon regeneration we believe.

John 1:13(NASB)
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:6-8(NASB)
6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[Yelsew]

Then we agree, further we agree that man has not the ability apart from regeneration to 'believe' anything, as your example, drawn from scripture ably shows us that even the theologically learned who witnessed the Christ in the flesh could not understand the heavenly things. So much for the idea of partially dead man...huh?

We do not agree on what you said after the first comma in the first sentence. Man has the ability to believe in Jesus. If not true, man could not believe in anything! You cannot believe in one single thing if you do not have the ability to believe in any and all other things. Believing is an ability, man has the ability, regenerated or not! And NO, I do not believe that man is born dead! I believe that man is born with an innate propensity to sin, but that until the first sin, man's spirit is very much alive. Will every man sin? Absolutely, the one who doesn't sin we would call Jesus, and we would crucify him!

 

[Frogman]

Yes, while you believe that no one can believe but that he first be regenerated (made new), Scriptures tell me it is by believing that we are regenerated..."made new". Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

How shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed?

Throws a wrench right into your machinery don't it, I guess you are right, it is best to overlook this scripture if you want to be 'successful' proving an unprovable point from scripture.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Jesus didn't regenerate corn? Analogy Analogy Analogy. Yeah, right?

If not true, man could not believe in anything! You cannot believe in one single thing if you do not have the ability to believe in any and all other things.

Natural man believes naturally, remember...If you don't believe earthly things, how shall ye believe heavenly things? It is the Spiritual things man cannot see before regeneration...after regeneration...man can see these truths and rejoices...how else to you think Abraham looked for Jesus' day and saw it and rejoiced?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
With the exception of the original twelve, Jesus did not choose any others

Not so, Yelsew.

2 Thessalonians 2:13(NASB)
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. </font>[/QUOTE]While Jesus walked among men, the only ones he Chose were the twelve, He did not choose any other. All the others who followed Jesus did so because they believed. What they believed may be subject to question, but they followed Jesus. Some even going off on their own, "evangelizing and baptising" without being chosen or Elected!

 

[KenH]

You didn't deal with the verse I presented, Yelsew.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
don't take this personal, I just thought it would be good to say this, so I have received before I pass it along, isn't it funny that we attack others, who often are far more able at plainly giving the meaning of scripture than ourselves, because of the time spent in prayer and study, that we often in support of our own view fail to provide adequate scripture.

This, you can take as being directed to you:

Now, provide scripture that definitely, without shade, shows the doctrines of Grace to do hurt to any attribute of God.

Bro. Dallas

The Meaning? Fill us in, where is this coming from?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
You didn't deal with the verse I presented, Yelsew.

Gimme a break! I'll get to you.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Gimme a break! I'll get to you.

"An answer, sir. This court demands an answer!"
- the presiding judge to King Charles in my favorite movie, "Cromwell"

 

[Frogman]

The Meaning? Fill us in, where is this coming from?

Sorry Yelsew, it was a fit of inspiration and I ahve no idea what it means...but it was in a conversation with bro. Ray I think.

Was nothing personal toward, him that wasn't speaking also to me, I assure you.
The conversation had degenerating to the degree that the attributes of God were being said to be hurt by the idea of man's lack of Free-Will. From this I gather you guys don't believe God existed before he created man?
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
The truth is that God would have been Just were He to Send His only begotten Son into the World without enabling any man to believe.

Failing to recognize this is where this version of the arminian argument falls apart.

If God did not provide a savior for anyone, or did not enable anyone to benefit from the savior, and therefore everyone went to hell, would God be just? </font>[/QUOTE]Who knows, but God would certainly negate some 60 prophesies about the Messiah! Rendering the work of His prophets null and void.

If an arminian is honest, I believe he or she would have to say yes. If not, I'd love to hear an explanation as to why that would be unjust.

You seem to think you have the answer, but it is multiple choice, and yours is but one possibility.

Forgetting for a moment the issue of predestination/election and free will, one needs to answer the next question: If God saved one person and allowed the rest to go to hell, would God be unjust?

I answer with this question, Was God Just before He created? What made him change?

I predict arminians would be forced to drag free will into the discussion in order to answer it. I predict they would answer it this way:

Yes, God would be unjust unless He offered the possibility of salvation to all. But if, after offering it to all, everyone except this one person rejected it, then God would not be unjust.

There are so many things wrong with this answer it's hard to know where to start. But here are the two errors that jump out at me:

1. This answer removes grace from grace. It is a contradiction in terms to be obligated to offer everyone unmerited favor.

Was God obligated before the Creation? What changed?

2. Grace is unmerited favor. If no one merits favor, then it is perfectly just to give it to no one, or to give it to any subset that God defines according to His good pleasure. One does not magically "merit" this "unmerited" favor simply because another person got it.

Oh! Poo Poo! God so loved the World! His Grace is for all, not just some subset of All. There is not one who merits God's Grace, and that's why God's grace is so great, it covers the whole of mankind, all of creation. There is not one who lived, is living or will live that is not subject to God's grace. We all have all of God's grace that we will ever get. When you've got it all what is left to get?

 

[Ray Berrian]

If God did not die for anyone would God be just? My answer is yes He would be just. He does what pleases Himself. But this is not the way it happened. In His sovereignty, love and mercy He offered salvation to all sinners. [Titus 2:11] 'For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to {how many men?} ALL men.' (women, men and children)

Moreover, if we did not have Bibles, the Word of God, we would not know He died for sinners. But since we can read John 3:16 you have the problem. In that He offered it to all He would be an unjust God {the attribute of the justice of God} to autocratically give it to a limited few, relatively speaking. [Matthew 7:14]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
With the exception of the original twelve, Jesus did not choose any others

Not so, Yelsew.

2 Thessalonians 2:13(NASB)
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. </font>[/QUOTE]What did those who Paul was addressing have in common? They were all hearers of the word who became believers based on what they were taught of and from God's word. No not the whole God's word that we have now, but that which was available to them at that time. They had previously heard the word, and had previously believed. So it was God's will from before the foundation of the world they should be saved. Just as it is for each of us. We have been given the opportunity to hear the word and believe in Jesus, just as all who hear the word are, and all who believe have eternal life. The choice is ours!

 

[Frogman]

Moreover, if we did not have Bibles, the Word of God, we would not know He died for sinners.

This is error. The Spirit taught the Gospel to Abraham. God taught it to Adam.

Your statement disenfranchises great multitudes of people, what about Seth, Enoch, Noah? These all lived prior to Moses, who wrote the Pentateuch of God's Word. Yet Scriptural record is clear these men were saved.

Your rush to please modern man has left our older brethren in the cold.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Jesus didn't regenerate corn? Analogy Analogy Analogy. Yeah, right?


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If not true, man could not believe in anything! You cannot believe in one single thing if you do not have the ability to believe in any and all other things.

Natural man believes naturally, remember...If you don't believe earthly things, how shall ye believe heavenly things? It is the Spiritual things man cannot see before regeneration...after regeneration...man can see these truths and rejoices...how else to you think Abraham looked for Jesus' day and saw it and rejoiced?

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]Regardless, man has the ability to believe, if not, he could not believe in spiritual things either! Regeneration does not bring with it a new ability, but rather a change in heart.

 

[Frogman]

Regardless, man has the ability to believe, if not, he could not believe in spiritual things either! Regeneration does not bring with it a new ability, but rather a change in heart.

Wait a minute, I'm still translating this one...what is this French, German

you still choose by not choosing.

Ok, now I get it, you mean you could also not choose by choosing...hey, this is fun

Now, I have got to work on this one:

Regeneration does not bring with it a new ability, but rather a change in heart.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

Please, read the English. I said something to the effect that 'if we did not have our Bibles we would not know that Christ died for our sins, unless you would have expected a cell phone call from either Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. Incidentally, they predeceased us.

Enoch, Abraham and Moses did not have all the knowledge that you have about the Gospel. They were each living under another system that led to their relationship to God. Yes, Abraham offered a lamb for atonement, and it was his obedience to God that provided the application of Christ's atonement which made him fit for Heaven. He was not acquainted with any of the New Testament concepts as we know them.

It might be good to follow my train of thought as well as your own as to your extreme view of sovereignty. This kind of Divine dominence in matters of human destiny shatters any kind of understanding of the attributes of God. I can tell that some of you gentlemen have never studied His glorious attributes or you would not espouse such flimsy and 'light weight' responses.

 

[Frogman]

According to the English I am reading from your post you are saying that those of the old Testament were saved in a way different than the Grace of God.

I merely said what Jesus did to the Jews. That Abraham looked for His day and saw it and rejoiced therein.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Pastor J.R. Hampton]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Hi, and welcome! IMO, the best way to answer this question is to first ask yourself if you believe God is just. Then you need to ask yourself if we do not have the ability to comply with anything God demands from us.

Do you see the difference? The question is not whether God is just. If you don't believe God is just, then it doesn't matter what you think He does with His creation, because you can't trust Him. If you do believe He is just, then it doesn't matter what He does with His creation because you know it is just. All you have to do is discover whether or not the thing in question is true.

Now - assuming you believe God is just - let's ask the question that remains: "Has God ever required anything from His creatures that He hasn't enabled them to supply, do, or live up to?"

I didn't understand your point the first time I read through it but after thinking about it I think your right. I think you are saying that you don't determine God's justice by what he does, instead you determine what is just by what He done, correct.

So, we must start knowing that God is perfectly just and then determine what does God do. So, we now agree that God is just regardless of what we discover He has done. Now let's look at the question you ask:

"Has God ever required anything from His creatures that He hasn't enabled them to supply, do, or live up to?"

At first glance I would say the answer to this question is, "no." It seems that all God demands from his creation He enables them to accomplish through his appointed means. Am I wrong?

 

[romanbear]

Hi Ken the Spurgeonite;
a quote from you;
-------------------------------------------------

Therefore, it is not a matter of God not giving humans such ability but rather that God created man with such ability that was lost when Adam plunged our race into great spiritual misery by sinning.
-------------------------------------------------

Just where do you read in scripture that Adam lost any ability. except that privilege to live in the garden?
Romanbear