Birth Before Belief

[Rockson]

But is says the things of God (gospel etc.) are spiritually discerned. Consider Peter: “He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!” (Matthew 16:15–17)

NO! You're not getting the intent of the passage. You must understand throughout Jesus ministry he didn't go around making that his theme that he was the Christ. He was and is and a few others had inkling that this was the case BUT...there was a time in place where that message was to be majored. God gave Peter a preview. Matt 16:20 the very next verse where Jesus told him he received this by special revelation you see what....Jesus tells them all,"Don't tell anybody else that I'm the Christ." There was a time and place for that message to be majored however not as yet. Now we're in the time where that message goes forth but you can't claim it's all to be the same as with Peter. The word with the declaration that goes out to all 100 % of humanity is anointed and empowered to help encourage and enable all of humanity to come to God as long as they don't resist and reject.

 

[InTheLight]

Is the gospel one of the "things of God"? If so, you are mistaken in your assigning the apprehension of truth to the spiritually elite only.

Obviously, yes. But it is the most basic message that God gives to us. The audience Paul was addressing in Corinth were Christians."We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature" v 6.

Paul wrote of, “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”— the things God has prepared for those who love him. These are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.v 9-10

So the natural man does not receive the mysteries of God, does not understand the deep things of God, does not comprehend the wisdom given to the mature. But they can understand the Gospel.

 

[1689Dave]

NO! You're not getting the intent of the passage. You must understand throughout Jesus ministry he didn't go around making that his theme that he was the Christ. He was and is and a few others had inkling that this was the case BUT...there was a time in place where that message was to be majored. God gave Peter a preview. Matt 16:20 the very next verse where Jesus told him he received this by special revelation you see what....Jesus tells them all,"Don't tell anybody else that I'm the Christ." There was a time and place for that message to be majored however not as yet. Now we're in the time where that message goes forth but you can't claim it's all to be the same as with Peter. The word with the declaration that goes out to all 100 % of humanity is anointed and empowered to help encourage and enable all of humanity to come to God as long as they don't resist and reject.

If God does not first reveal Christ to a person, they worship and follow Satan by default, thinking their idol bearing Christ's name is Christ. You cannot worship the true Christ apart from divine revelation. Just as Peter demonstrated.

 

[1689Dave]

Obviously, yes. But it is the most basic message that God gives to us. The audience Paul was addressing in Corinth were Christians."We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature" v 6.

Paul wrote of, “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”— the things God has prepared for those who love him. These are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.v 9-10

So the natural man does not receive the mysteries of God, does not understand the deep things of God, does not comprehend the wisdom given to the mature. But they can understand the Gospel.

And this includes all divine truth, including the gospel.

 

[InTheLight]

And this includes all divine truth, including the gospel.

To quote an admin here, "Well, you're simply wrong. I don't know how else it can be explained to you."

I quoted three verses from the very same chapter you pull out your one "proof verse" that shows the things that can't be understood by natural man are the weightier matters of God. The gospel is the "power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" Rom 1:16. That's pretty inclusive of just about everyone on the planet. No conditions are made. The gospel is POWERFUL for everyone.

 

[1689Dave]

Why did Jesus say "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven.
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”



I don't believe nor have I said that goodness has anything to do with it. I have said it was the gospel alone that enables us to believe. Those who do not believe have the same enabling gospel and the reasons they reject God are many. With the rich ruler it was because of his immense wealth. For the lawyer in Luke it was his pride and need for self justification.




God does choose who He wants to save, which is those who believe.



…and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” -2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-16‬

1Pe 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Jas 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The gospel is the saving factor.

The bottom line, after we exhaust all avenues of discussion is: if your response to God, or choice to not resist God initiates your salvation, then salvation is by self-righteousness and not grace. This is full blown Pelagianism.

 

[1689Dave]

To quote an admin here, "Well, you're simply wrong. I don't know how else it can be explained to you."

I quoted three verses from the very same chapter you pull out your one "proof verse" that shows the things that can't be understood by natural man are the weightier matters of God. The gospel is the "power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" Rom 1:16. That's pretty inclusive of just about everyone on the planet. No conditions are made. The gospel is POWERFUL for everyone.

It still comes down to self-righteousness, not grace that determines whom God saves in your scheme. This is full blown Pelagianism.

 

[InTheLight]

It still comes down to self-righteousness, not grace that determines whom God saves in your scheme. This is full blown Pelagianism.

Now you are trying to change the subject. And name-calling.

The debate is whether or not 1 Cor. 2 is talking about the gospel or other, weightier things of the Spirit. Obviously, according to several verses I quoted in the context of the chapter, the subject matter is the deeper things of God, not the gospel.

 

[1689Dave]

Now you are trying to change the subject. And name-calling.

The debate is whether or not 1 Cor. 2 is talking about the gospel or other, weightier things of the Spirit. Obviously, according to several verses I quoted in the context of the chapter, the subject matter is the deeper things of God, not the gospel.

I am stating a fact. Pelagius Morgan had the same conclusion about salvation as you. Salvation was for the self-righteous only.

 

[Yeshua1]

What regeneration of the human spirit being born again comes first? How can that be when Old Testament saints weren't regenerated? Couldn't they still believe?

They had to be regenerated, or else they would not have obeyed and followed God as they did, such as David, Abraham, Moses etc!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am stating a fact. Pelagius Morgan had the same conclusion about salvation as you. Salvation was for the self-righteous only.

Dave, Please do not connect him to the Welsh!

 

[Yeshua1]

Foreknowledge doesn't mean predetermined.

Actually, to paul both would refer to the saved in Christ, as God purposed them to come unto jesus to be saved from Eternity past!

 

[Revmitchell]

The bottom line, after we exhaust all avenues of discussion is: if your response to God, or choice to not resist God initiates your salvation, then salvation is by self-righteousness and not grace. This is full blown Pelagianism.

Bottom line: No its not according to scripture.

 

[Revmitchell]

Actually, to paul both would refer to the saved in Christ, as God purposed them to come unto jesus to be saved from Eternity past!

God purposed that those would believe would be righteous.

 

[1689Dave]

Bottom line: No its not according to scripture.

Bottom line = any act of the will that determines whether or not God saves you = salvation by self-righteousness = Pelagianism.

 

[Yeshua1]

God purposed that those would believe would be righteous.

The ultimate basis for salvation would be either the will of God, or of us!

 

[Revmitchell]

The ultimate basis for salvation would be either the will of God, or of us!

When God decided before the foundation of the world that those who would believe would be elected to righteousness, it was at that moment that the will of God was the determining factor. The required response from God to believe and repent has nothing to do with the will that provided our salvation. That was taken care of at the foundation of the world.

 

[Revmitchell]

Bottom line = any act of the will that determines whether or not God saves you = salvation by self-righteousness = Pelagianism.

See post # 117

 

[InTheLight]

I am stating a fact. Pelagius Morgan had the same conclusion about salvation as you. Salvation was for the self-righteous only.

You're projecting someone else's beliefs onto me. Nowhere in this thread have I described my stance on salvation, except to say that natural man, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, can understand the Gospel.

I notice that you continually avoid addressing my point that 1 Cor. 2 is describing deeper spiritual things as being not received by the natural man and these deeper things that are not understood is not the gospel.

 

[Yeshua1]

When God decided before the foundation of the world that those who would believe would be elected to righteousness, it was at that moment that the will of God was the determining factor. The required response from God to believe and repent has nothing to do with the will that provided our salvation. That was taken care of at the foundation of the world.

God election is on an individual basis, per each person, as Jesus died in place of them, and not for a Plan of election!