But shouldn't we interpret the Bible spiritually instead of literally?

[John of Japan]

Everyone recognises dispensations.....just not all of the 7 classic ones.

Well, everyone but thatbrian.

Some will mock the literal because they react to the literalist explaining away what can be perceived as spiritual truth.....for example....

Personally, I think they mock the literal because they don't understand the literal method.

Do you believe Jesus is the new exodus?
That term is not clearly spoken of as such although the term exodus is used of our spirit departing from our body.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Never heard of this one, and the term is not in the Bible except for the title of the book.

Again....it would not disturb me at all if it happened exactly as the premill scheme is laid out

Glad to know that.

 

[John of Japan]

Could a literal white horse breathe in outer space?
Would it move very slow so it did not burn up on re-entry? Or would it be a supernatural "white horse"....like a hologram?

I'll answer your question with questions of my own. Can Christ riding a horse be the result of several different miracles? Why deny the horse simply because there are physical impossibilities involved?

John.....does Satan get bound by a literal chain like we can buy at Ace hardware?
Or is the "image" of a chain convey an idea that whatever is necessary to bind a Spirit is used to limit the activity of the spirit?

I see no reason that the chain cannot be literal, since angels have a physical presence. But you, like the others, mock the literal view with your "Ace Hardware" comment. I'm disappointed in you. Mocking convinces no one, but only offends, and is poor debating technique.

 

[Iconoclast]

If the 1000 years of Rev. 20 is a figure of speech, why is it repeated six times in the chapter? That is not how figures of speech are presented in literature. So, that means that if you take the 1000 years as a figure of speech, you have to prove how it is one. Got any proofs? What type of figure of speech is it?

Again if there was a literal 1000 yr period that would be fine.
Like when on new years people watch the ball drop in times square...then like a stop watch starts a 1000 yr countdown....no one would be sad to be there. We would have to confess that we were wrong on this...just being there would prove it to each person.
However....if it is meant to give a clear image of a long period of time, beyond a normal life span even for Methuselah....then the difference would be that many are not serving in the Kingdom as they should right now.
I am not speaking of you, because you and others are all about serving the Lord....but I have had more than a few tell me why bother ,everything is going to pass away anyway.

 

[TCassidy]

Could a literal white horse breathe in outer space?
Would it move very slow so it did not burn up on re-entry? Or would it be a supernatural "white horse"....like a hologram?

John.....does Satan get bound by a literal chain like we can buy at Ace hardware?
Or is the "image" of a chain convey an idea that whatever is necessary to bind a Spirit is used to limit the activity of the spirit?

This nonsense is why so few take you seriously on this forum.

 

[HankD]

RE: Riding a white horse: Why can't the literal and the symbolic be blended rightly dividing the word of truth.

Jesus visibly returns to earth in the manner He left (bodily) - the white horse symbolizing His glorious return as the conquering potentate - LORD of lords and King of kings.

IMO Everyone of us has this blend in their biblical repertoire and personally I respect them all (may not like it, but respect, yes even the preterists - did I say that?).

Obviously our blend determines our eschatology (or lack thereof).

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

Again if there was a literal 1000 yr period that would be fine.
Like when on new years people watch the ball drop in times square...then like a stop watch starts a 1000 yr countdown....no one would be sad to be there. We would have to confess that we were wrong on this...just being there would prove it to each person.
However....if it is meant to give a clear image of a long period of time, beyond a normal life span even for Methuselah....then the difference would be that many are not serving in the Kingdom as they should right now.
I am not speaking of you, because you and others are all about serving the Lord....but I have had more than a few tell me why bother ,everything is going to pass away anyway.

Anyone who interprets dispensational premillennialism as meaning we don't have to serve Christ because "everything is going to pass away anyway" is sadly ignorant of the doctrine.

1. The glory of God is the purpose of each dispensation, especially the church age, and laziness in His service does not glorify God.
2. The Second Coming should spur us on to greater efforts for Christ, since there will be a Judgment Seat of Christ where we are rewarded (or not) for serving Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, everyone but thatbrian.
Personally, I think they mock the literal because they don't understand the literal method.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. Never heard of this one, and the term is not in the Bible except for the title of the book.

Glad to know that.

John....if you list all the events concerning Moses as mediator leading Israel out of Egypt...literally...from the ruler trying to kill him as a child, to being raised up as a leader...to going up to Pharoah,to all of the supernatural events as God effected the first....dare I say it?....literal Exodus-
Then examine the gospels and see if the Historical Exodus....was given as a type to allow us a clearer understanding of our Lords person and work.
That is the New Exodus I am speaking about.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'll answer your question with questions of my own. Can Christ riding a horse be the result of several different miracles? Why deny the horse simply because there are physical impossibilities involved?


I see no reason that the chain cannot be literal, since angels have a physical presence. But you, like the others, mock the literal view with your "Ace Hardware" comment. I'm disappointed in you. Mocking convinces no one, but only offends, and is poor debating technique.

I am not mocking by mentioning a hardware store at all....I am completely serious.
The literal chain....how can that bind a spirit?
The only literal binding....would be a spiritual binding..

 

[John of Japan]

John....if you list all the events concerning Moses as mediator leading Israel out of Egypt...literally...from the ruler trying to kill him as a child, to being raised up as a leader...to going up to Pharoah,to all of the supernatural events as God effected the first....dare I say it?....literal Exodus-
Then examine the gospels and see if the Historical Exodus....was given as a type to allow us a clearer understanding of our Lords person and work.
That is the New Exodus I am speaking about.

Okay. Typology. The literal method recognizes typology, only we would say Moses is the type, not the exodus. What's the relevance here?

 

[John of Japan]

I am not mocking by mentioning a hardware store at all....I am completely serious.
The literal chain....how can that bind a spirit?
The only literal binding....would be a spiritual binding..

Please pay attention. I answered this already.

 

[Iconoclast]

This nonsense is why so few take you seriously on this forum.

Nonsense???? Did someone pee in your cornflakes this morning TC?
Where is this comment coming from?
The reason we have to be changed is flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven...a change has to take place...something different must occur...

 

[TCassidy]

Nonsense?

Yes, nonsense!

Did someone pee in your cornflakes this morning TC?

That is a disgusting metaphor and I will thank you not to pollute the forum with such crudities.

Where is this comment coming from?

It is coming from your childish mockery of God's word.

Could a literal white horse breathe in outer space?

That is just pathetic.

Would it move very slow so it did not burn up on re-entry?

Equally pathetic.

Or would it be a supernatural "white horse"....like a hologram?

Mockery is a tacit admission of failure on your part. You can't honestly discuss the issue so you engage in mockery which exposes your fallacy.

"Appeal to Ridicule is a type of logical fallacy. Logical fallacy is using false logic to try to make a claim or argument. Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy that attempts to make a claim look ridiculous by mocking it or exaggerating it in a negative way."
www.softschools.com/examples/fallacies/appeal_to_ridicule_examples/519/

As I said, pathetic.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not mocking by mentioning a hardware store at all....I am completely serious.
The literal chain....how can that bind a spirit?
The only literal binding....would be a spiritual binding..

Whatever is happening here, Satan will be bound, and that has not yet happened!
For when he is, no more false religions, carnage, world wars etc!

 

[Covenanter]

Long time finishing this.

I find it very strange that there is a desire to "spiritualize" rather than to seek the actuality of the last day fulfillments.

According to NT prophecy - e.g. Olivet, the last days run from Pentecost to Jesus final return in glory for resurrection & judgment, with an intermediate coming for the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem which took place in AD 70. The next great event is Jesus' final coming. That, according to Peter will be immediately followed by the NH&NE.

Jesus & the Apostles make it clear that Jesus has a present spiritual Kingdom, of which believers are citizens, kings & priests. John 3, 1 Cor., Col. 1, et al. They also make it clear that there is spiritual warfare in that spiritual realm.

In what way do you think we are "spiritualising" in a way that rejects a proper interpretation of Scripture?

Why is there some great avoidance and actual psychological hindrance in embracing a literal millennium, a literal return of Christ as the Scriptures clearly teach?

THe "millennium" includes the souls of martyred believers living & reigning with Christ as priests. That is our present spiritual status as born again believers, as Peter explains in 1 Peter 2, and that status will not be ended by natural death nor martyrdom. John sees the faithful believers in glory, in heaven in the presence of their Saviour, awaiting resurrection.

The "millennium" holds vast numbers of unbelievers waiting for Satan's release so they can march across the breadth of the earth against the camp of God's people. Future millennium teaching has Jesus reigning in person on earth over those unbelievers. A present spiritual reign over the spiritual realm during the Gospel age, is the simple teaching of Scripture. And a final coming for resurrection & judgment.

That is not spiritualising, it is an understanding of the carnal realm & the spiritual realm. Jesus is reigning from David's throne in heaven. Acts 2.

Here is my personal opinion.

The early church taught a literal physical time in which Christ would rule this whole world.

What changed?

Two.

One the sacking of Rome, and the other the desire to deceive in order to hold control and hold authority.

In both events, the truth of the Scriptures were brought into question. Rather than clinging to that truth, humankind invented other schemes alien to the typical rendering of Scriptures and then deceitfully propagated the scheme(s) to cause confusion and therefore the dependence of reliance that only a select few really knew the truth.

In this day, the lie continues, because it is God's desire that the deceiver be allowed to deceive. That the folks will be confirmed in their own righteousness and not in that of the Son.

Therefore, there is mocking, and shrewd (even cunning) designs to belittle the truth of the Scriptures and bring doubt to the statements of Christ.

Off topic.

 

[agedman]

Long time finishing this.



According to NT prophecy - e.g. Olivet, the last days run from Pentecost to Jesus final return in glory for resurrection & judgment, with an intermediate coming for the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem which took place in AD 70. The next great event is Jesus' final coming. That, according to Peter will be immediately followed by the NH&NE.

Jesus & the Apostles make it clear that Jesus has a present spiritual Kingdom, of which believers are citizens, kings & priests. John 3, 1 Cor., Col. 1, et al. They also make it clear that there is spiritual warfare in that spiritual realm.

In what way do you think we are "spiritualising" in a way that rejects a proper interpretation of Scripture?


THe "millennium" includes the souls of martyred believers living & reigning with Christ as priests. That is our present spiritual status as born again believers, as Peter explains in 1 Peter 2, and that status will not be ended by natural death nor martyrdom. John sees the faithful believers in glory, in heaven in the presence of their Saviour, awaiting resurrection.

The "millennium" holds vast numbers of unbelievers waiting for Satan's release so they can march across the breadth of the earth against the camp of God's people. Future millennium teaching has Jesus reigning in person on earth over those unbelievers. A present spiritual reign over the spiritual realm during the Gospel age, is the simple teaching of Scripture. And a final coming for resurrection & judgment.

That is not spiritualising, it is an understanding of the carnal realm & the spiritual realm. Jesus is reigning from David's throne in heaven. Acts 2.


Off topic.

This age is not the millennial reign presented by the prophets, the apostles, and The Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

This age is not the millennial reign presented by the prophets, the apostles, and The Lord Jesus Christ.

I am still looking for no more war/disease/crime and all worship the true God!

 

[robycop3]

Peter says NOTHING about what you call the millennium.
He has only two applications for the day/thousand years - the time before the day of judgment & destruction of Jerusalem & the scoffers who were accusing Jesus of being a false prophet;
and the time to the final day of the Lord/day of God which will end the present day of grace & bring about the NH&NE.

You can't read a yet future millennium into Peter's letters.

I was "reading" it into the REVELATION.

 

[Covenanter]

Do you believe Jesus is the new exodus?
That term is not clearly spoken of as such although the term exodus is used of our spirit departing from our body.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Never heard of this one, and the term is not in the Bible except for the title of the book.

Try this Scripture -

Jer. 23:5 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

7 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”​

 

[Covenanter]

This age is not the millennial reign presented by the prophets, the apostles, and The Lord Jesus Christ.

Please give examples of "the prophets, the apostles, and The Lord Jesus Christ" teaching the millennial reign. A millennium populated by hordes of evil, unregenerate men.

 

[robycop3]

I find it very strange that there is a desire to "spiritualize" rather than to seek the actuality of the last day fulfillments.

Why is there some great avoidance and actual psychological hindrance in embracing a literal millennium, a literal return of Christ as the Scriptures clearly teach?

Here is my personal opinion.

The early church taught a literal physical time in which Christ would rule this whole world.

What changed?

Two.

One the sacking of Rome, and the other the desire to deceive in order to hold control and hold authority.

In both events, the truth of the Scriptures were brought into question. Rather than clinging to that truth, humankind invented other schemes alien to the typical rendering of Scriptures and then deceitfully propagated the scheme(s) to cause confusion and therefore the dependence of reliance that only a select few really knew the truth.

In this day, the lie continues, because it is God's desire that the deceiver be allowed to deceive. That the folks will be confirmed in their own righteousness and not in that of the Son.

Therefore, there is mocking, and shrewd (even cunning) designs to belittle the truth of the Scriptures and bring doubt to the statements of Christ.

Can anyone point out a prophecy by Jesus that hasn't LITERALLY come to pass? (Of those that have already been fulfilled)