can One Be Charasmatic And NOT Be In Word of faith?

[awaken]

A J.W. came to my door today. He wasn't pushy. I was the one that kept "pushing" the Scripture on him because I am concerned for him. He would bring up Jesus, the Son of God; I immediately corrected him--no; Christ is God. They need to understand the deity of Christ, no matter how "pushy" it may seem. They are false teachers going from door. But on first impression he was not a "pushy" individual. He was polite, kind, a gentleman, etc. I was the one that had to confront him with the truth. He went home thinking of who Christ really was.

Mormons can be very gentle and kind.
So are many Muslims and Hindus.

We are commanded to "contend for the truth."
The truth hurts. Standing up for the truth, proclaiming at all costs the deity of Christ in the face of those that adamantly deny it is not easy. They may seem to be gentle, but they hold heretical views just the same.

The Charismatic movement transcends all denominations. You have it in your Baptist church. The Anglican church was one of the first to accept it. One of the original leaders of the Pentecostal leaders and faith healers was
William Branham. He is dead now, but the Branhamites live on as a cult in their own right. They deny the trinity; believe that Original Sin was caused by a sexual union between the serpent and Eve, and some other very strange doctrines. Most Branhamites meet in small groups listening to tapes of Branham.

Many people that are kind, welcoming, tender-hearted, etc. do not always contend for the truth, but rather are heretics prowling as false teachers.
Someone who tells the truth may sound brash because we are sinners, and when are sin is confronted we don't like it.

Well, my experience with them before I believed was different! Because I was just as dogmatic against them as you are now! They shared with me the truth in the Word...most of what they shared I had never heard preached or taught in a Baptist church.

These people were clients of mine. I stood firm on what I was taught against their teachings. But when I started digging for myself....well I now believe! Not because they were pushy or made me feel second class for what I believed. But because they were patient and loving!

YOu keep bringing up so many that are way off base! Not all charismatics are that far off! They just believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit are still for the church today!

 

[DHK]

Well, my experience with them before I believed was different! Because I was just as dogmatic against them as you are now! They shared with me the truth in the Word...most of what they shared I had never heard preached or taught in a Baptist church.

These people were clients of mine. I stood firm on what I was taught against their teachings. But when I started digging for myself....well I now believe! Not because they were pushy or made me feel second class for what I believed. But because they were patient and loving!

YOu keep bringing up so many that are way off base! Not all charismatics are that far off! They just believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit are still for the church today!

You said:
"You stood firm on what you were taught...you started digging...you now believe... they were patient and kind."

What did you study? Where were you digging?
We have shown you that what you present to us is contrary to more than 1800 years of history. What can you possibly study, therefore, that would lead you to the "truth" (or supposed truth), then what you formerly believed. You even admitted this is relatively new doctrine.

There are many people patient and kind; that doesn't make them right.
I have relatives that are devout Roman Catholics, very sincere in their religion, but sincerely wrong. Their sincerity, kindness, and patience will not get them to heaven. It won't make them right before God or right doctrinally.

This statement alone:

"They just believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit are still for the church today!?

It shows you still don't understand the work of the Holy Spirit now, and the Holy Spirit then. As the above statement stands, everyone here believes it. We all believe i the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and that he is still working in the church today. Your statement is not wrong. It is you that misunderstands what you are saying.
The Holy Spirit is operational. He manifests himself. He displays or shows himself in different ways. He works in and through us in different ways.
That is all that statement means. The statement in and of itself has nothing to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[awaken]

You said:
"You stood firm on what you were taught...you started digging...you now believe... they were patient and kind."

What did you study? Where were you digging?
We have shown you that what you present to us is contrary to more than 1800 years of history. What can you possibly study, therefore, that would lead you to the "truth" (or supposed truth), then what you formerly believed. You even admitted this is relatively new doctrine.

I went to the Word! I have presented here what I found! So you can accept it or reject it! I accepted it, repented of my unbelief and God has opened up more of His Word and I have experienced what He said I could!

There are many people patient and kind; that doesn't make them right.
I have relatives that are devout Roman Catholics, very sincere in their religion, but sincerely wrong. Their sincerity, kindness, and patience will not get them to heaven. It won't make them right before God or right doctrinally.

This statement alone:

"They just believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit are still for the church today!?

It shows you still don't understand the work of the Holy Spirit now, and the Holy Spirit then. As the above statement stands, everyone here believes it. We all believe i the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and that he is still working in the church today. Your statement is not wrong. It is you that misunderstands what you are saying.
The Holy Spirit is operational. He manifests himself. He displays or shows himself in different ways. He works in and through us in different ways.
That is all that statement means. The statement in and of itself has nothing to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Well 1 Cor. 12 says different!

 

[DHK]

I went to the Word! I have presented here what I found! So you can accept it or reject it! I accepted it, repented of my unbelief and God has opened up more of His Word and I have experienced what He said I could!

Your testimony contradicts itself. You were influenced (and I presume your Bible studies were also influenced) by these kind and patient Charismatics. You simply did not arrive at these Charismatic conclusions on your own. Believers for 1900 years did not arrive on any such conclusions, not even scholars who could read fluently the original languages of Greek and Hebrew.
You were influenced by Charismatic people.
Did you know that greatest number of people in the J.W. movement were once Baptists? But these kind and patient, and also somewhat persistent people kept coming to people who thought that there needs were not being met. It is sad to see someone turn from the truth to the error of a cult because of the kind demeanor of others.

Well 1 Cor. 12 says different!

No it doesn't. You are reading into scripture that which you want to say, instead of what it does say:

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal. ASV

1 Corinthians 12:7 But to each the manifestation of the Spirit is given for profit. Darby

1 Corinthians 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of all. WEB

1 Corinthians 12:7 And to each hath been given the manifestation of the Spirit for profit; Young's

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others.

(ESV) To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

(Geneva) But the manifestation of the Spirit is giuen to euery man, to profite withall.

(ISV) To each person has been given the ability to manifest the Spirit for the common good.

(MKJV) But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.

None of these translations mention the "gifts of the Spirit." The last translation is known as the "modern KJV" It translates "the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit. The Spirit shows himself in various ways. According to John 16, he convicts of sin, of righteousness and of judgment. In Gal.5 the fruit of the righteousness is given, and is shown forth through believers.
The gifts of the Spirit have ceased. You have not demonstrated to this day that they are operative. Who today demonstrates the gift of healing as Peter did in Acts 5:16?
Who today demonstrates the gift of miracles?
You can't even point to those that can demonstrate these gifts in their lives, and yet claim they exist!!
If the gift of tongues truly existed Charismatic missionaries wouldn't have to go to language school, but they do! What a contradiction!

 

[awaken]

Your testimony contradicts itself. You were influenced (and I presume your Bible studies were also influenced) by these kind and patient Charismatics. You simply did not arrive at these Charismatic conclusions on your own. Believers for 1900 years did not arrive on any such conclusions, not even scholars who could read fluently the original languages of Greek and Hebrew.
You were influenced by Charismatic people.

A better way of putting it is that Charismatic believers showed me truth! I prayed and searched it out for myself!

Did you know that greatest number of people in the J.W. movement were once Baptists? But these kind and patient, and also somewhat persistent people kept coming to people who thought that there needs were not being met. It is sad to see someone turn from the truth to the error of a cult because of the kind demeanor of others.

There you go again trying to prove a point by pointing at the bad eggs! You can not prove charismatic wrong just because there are a few false out there. Stick to the Scriptures to prove or disprove a doctrine! ...But then again we have gone through the scriptures and do not see them the same way!

No it doesn't. You are reading into scripture that which you want to say, instead of what it does say:

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal. ASV

1 Corinthians 12:7 But to each the manifestation of the Spirit is given for profit. Darby

1 Corinthians 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of all. WEB

1 Corinthians 12:7 And to each hath been given the manifestation of the Spirit for profit; Young's

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others.

(ESV) To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

(Geneva) But the manifestation of the Spirit is giuen to euery man, to profite withall.

(ISV) To each person has been given the ability to manifest the Spirit for the common good.

(MKJV) But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.

None of these translations mention the "gifts of the Spirit." The last translation is known as the "modern KJV" It translates "the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit. The Spirit shows himself in various ways. According to John 16, he convicts of sin, of righteousness and of judgment. In Gal.5 the fruit of the righteousness is given, and is shown forth through believers.
The gifts of the Spirit have ceased. You have not demonstrated to this day that they are operative. Who today demonstrates the gift of healing as Peter did in Acts 5:16?
Who today demonstrates the gift of miracles?
You can't even point to those that can demonstrate these gifts in their lives, and yet claim they exist!!
If the gift of tongues truly existed Charismatic missionaries wouldn't have to go to language school, but they do! What a contradiction!

TRY READING THE NEXT FOUR VERSES...HE DISCRIBES THE MANIFESTATION..HE NAMES NINE!

 

[DHK]

A better way of putting it is that Charismatic believers showed me truth! I prayed and searched it out for myself!
There you go again trying to prove a point by pointing at the bad eggs! You can not prove charismatic wrong just because there are a few false out there. Stick to the Scriptures to prove or disprove a doctrine! ...But then again we have gone through the scriptures and do not see them the same way!

The Charismatic movement is one of those bad eggs.
It is basically a cult that was started in 1905. Look up some of its leaders and see what they believed in what they were involved in. You should do the same with some of the current leaders of the Charismatic movement, such as Benny Hinn and others.

TRY READING THE NEXT FOUR VERSES...HE DISCRIBES THE MANIFESTATION..HE NAMES NINE!

No he doesn't.
He never describes "the manifestation."
There is no such thing as "the manifestation."
I tried to explain this to you before. You have a lack of understanding when it comes to grammar in the English language.

You believe in "the manifestation" ???
Do you also believe in "the conviction"
in "the sanctification"
in "the holiness"

the manifestation of what???
the conviction of who, what, etc."

These words need an object. There is no "the manifestation." The "manifestation of................." Continue on. Perhaps it is the manifestation of the works of the devil you are speaking of because you don't say. The devil does manifest his work. Is that "the manifestation" you are referring to?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Consider the following taken from an article on Pentecostalism:

"Because speaking in tongues was initially believed to always be actual foreign languages, it was believed that missionaries would no longer have to learn the languages of the peoples they evangelized because the Holy Spirit would provide whatever foreign language was required. (When the majority of missionaries, to their disappointment, learned that tongues speech was unintelligible on the mission field, Pentecostal leaders were forced to modify their understanding of tongues.)"

Most tongues-speech is not speech at all, not a language at all, not even a heavenly one, but only babblings and gibberish.

 

[awaken]

The Charismatic movement is one of those bad eggs.
It is basically a cult that was started in 1905. Look up some of its leaders and see what they believed in what they were involved in. You should do the same with some of the current leaders of the Charismatic movement, such as Benny Hinn and others.

I am not in a movement! I am in the Word of God! That is what I have shared and that is where my faith is!

No he doesn't.
He never describes "the manifestation."
There is no such thing as "the manifestation."
I tried to explain this to you before. You have a lack of understanding when it comes to grammar in the English language.

You believe in "the manifestation" ???
Do you also believe in "the conviction"
in "the sanctification"
in "the holiness"

the manifestation of what???
the conviction of who, what, etc."

These words need an object. There is no "the manifestation." The "manifestation of................." Continue on. Perhaps it is the manifestation of the works of the devil you are speaking of because you don't say. The devil does manifest his work. Is that "the manifestation" you are referring to?

The manifestation of the HOLY SPIRIT!
Those manifestation are listed in 1 Cor. 12 Word of Wisdom, Word of knowledge, discernment of spirits etc.

 

[awaken]

Consider the following taken from an article on Pentecostalism:

"Because speaking in tongues was initially believed to always be actual foreign languages, it was believed that missionaries would no longer have to learn the languages of the peoples they evangelized because the Holy Spirit would provide whatever foreign language was required. (When the majority of missionaries, to their disappointment, learned that tongues speech was unintelligible on the mission field, Pentecostal leaders were forced to modify their understanding of tongues.)"

Most tongues-speech is not speech at all, not a language at all, not even a heavenly one, but only babblings and gibberish.

If you could grasp what the Bible says about tongues you would understand the purpose was not to evangalize! Tongues is a language just not one learned or understood by the speaker unless we pray for the interpretation!

 

[evangelist-7]

I am not in a movement!
I am in the Word of God!
That is what I have shared and that is where my faith is!

Please try to understand what is going on in the world!
You should have said ...

I am not in a movement!
I am in the Word of God!
I am being led by the Holy Spirit into all spiritual Truth!
That is what I have shared and that is where my faith is!

Spiritual Truth ONLY comes via revelations from the Holy Spirit.

That's why born-again Christians can all read the same Scriptures and come up with differing conclusions!

Da unbelievers are NOT the only ones who are spiritually blind and deaf.
We all have our blind spots, which have to be removed by the Lord, if and when He chooses to do so.
And our "openness" has something to do with that, i.e. not having UNBELIEF.
.

 

[DHK]

I am not in a movement! I am in the Word of God! That is what I have shared and that is where my faith is!

Unless you are completely isolated we are all in different movements. You chose to be in the Charismatic movement, that movement which is characterized by "gibberish speaking," as opposed to speaking actual foreign languages as they did in the Bible. I belong to an IFB church, and those around me say that I am involved in the fundamentalist movement and in missions. We involve ourselves. We don't live in isolation. We make our choices and then we have to live with them.

The manifestation of the HOLY SPIRIT!
Those manifestation are listed in 1 Cor. 12 Word of Wisdom, Word of knowledge, discernment of spirits etc.

The Holy Spirit is not confined to your restraints. Why do you want to keep him inside your box? The Holy Spirit manifests himself in different ways through different people in different periods of times. Any serious student of the Bible can see that the sign gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Never have I said that the Spirit has ceased manifesting himself. Thus your confusion, and inability to properly define this word "manifestation."

One can easily say this about "the manifestation" and be perfectly biblical:
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

It does not necessarily follow that the gifts of the Spirit are the only things that were manifested by the Holy Spirit in the Corinthian Church. If you read the rest of the chapter you see that he is not confining himself to just nine gifts. He is speaking of the talents and abilities of every member of the church that God has given them.

1 Corinthians 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
--Using the human body as an analogy Paul shows them that they can't all have the same gift (tongues, for example). They must be satisfied with the gift that they were given, which may or may not be miraculous. Everyone must work together in harmony.
Not everyone can be an eye. If the ear demanded to be the eye or the nose demanded to be the eye, then what would the face look like, and how would the body function? But the face of the Charimatics simply looks like one big ugly tongue!! And it doesn't know how to speak yet. It is missing the rest of the body parts.

1 Corinthians 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
--Good question? Ask your Charismatic friends this question; the same question Paul asked of the Corinthians. The "one member" is "the tongue." If all are "the tongue" where is the body?

1 Corinthians 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
--But the Charismatic "tongue" says I have no need of you to all the rest of the body parts. "Speaking in tongues" so-called is the only thing that is important to them.

1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
--Are all apostles? NO.
Are all prophets? NO.
Do all speak with tongues? NO.
The gifts are not for everyone.
And just as the apostles have died, and there are no more prophets today, tongues also have ceased. You can't point to a single person, a missionary for example, who doesn't have to learn the language of the nation he is going to, because God has given him the Biblical gift of tongues/languages. It doesn't exist. We all have to learn those difficult foreign languages. That gift has ceased.

 

[awaken]

Please try to understand what is going on in the world!
You should have said ...

I am not in a movement!
I am in the Word of God!
I am being led by the Holy Spirit into all spiritual Truth!
That is what I have shared and that is where my faith is!

Spiritual Truth ONLY comes via revelations from the Holy Spirit.

That's why born-again Christians can all read the same Scriptures and come up with differing conclusions!

Da unbelievers are NOT the only ones who are spiritually blind and deaf.
We all have our blind spots, which have to be removed by the Lord, if and when He chooses to do so.
And our "openness" has something to do with that, i.e. not having UNBELIEF.
.

Yes! I was one of those with the blind spots! Mostly because of my unbelief that I was raised in concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

 

[awaken]

Unless you are completely isolated we are all in different movements. You chose to be in the Charismatic movement, that movement which is characterized by "gibberish speaking," as opposed to speaking actual foreign languages as they did in the Bible. I belong to an IFB church, and those around me say that I am involved in the fundamentalist movement and in missions. We involve ourselves. We don't live in isolation. We make our choices and then we have to live with them.

Well, I am in a Baptist church that believes in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! So what ever movement that is! So be it! If I was going to put myself in a movement it would be that of Jesus Christ!

The Holy Spirit is not confined to your restraints. Why do you want to keep him inside your box? The Holy Spirit manifests himself in different ways through different people in different periods of times. Any serious student of the Bible can see that the sign gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Never have I said that the Spirit has ceased manifesting himself. Thus your confusion, and inability to properly define this word "manifestation."

No, you just say that he does not manifest as 1 Cor. 12 says he can!

One can easily say this about "the manifestation" and be perfectly biblical:
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So do you manifest the Holy Spirit or the flesh? When something manifest it can be seen or heard in our lives! When the Holy Spirit manifest Himself through healing it is manifested in a person's life! When He manifest in tongues..it is manifested through our mouth!

It does not necessarily follow that the gifts of the Spirit are the only things that were manifested by the Holy Spirit in the Corinthian Church. If you read the rest of the chapter you see that he is not confining himself to just nine gifts. He is speaking of the talents and abilities of every member of the church that God has given them.

In context he states the nine manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

But the face of the Charimatics simply looks like one big ugly tongue!! And it doesn't know how to speak yet. It is missing the rest of the body parts.

Wrong! Our church recognizes all of them! You on the other hand are the one that says tongues is of no use!

1 Corinthians 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
--Good question? Ask your Charismatic friends this question; the same question Paul asked of the Corinthians. The "one member" is "the tongue." If all are "the tongue" where is the body?

Not all are called to speak in tongues and interpretation! But all can pray in the spirit!

[
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
--Are all apostles? NO.
Are all prophets? NO.
Do all speak with tongues? NO.
The gifts are not for everyone.
And just as the apostles have died, and there are no more prophets today, tongues also have ceased. You can't point to a single person, a missionary for example, who doesn't have to learn the language of the nation he is going to, because God has given him the Biblical gift of tongues/languages. It doesn't exist. We all have to learn those difficult foreign languages. That gift has ceased.[/QUOTE]
I was not putting him a box...I was keeping it in cotext of 1 Cor. 12!
You have yet to prove that it has died out! If you understood tongues you would know it was not for evangalizing!

 

[DHK]

Well, I am in a Baptist church that believes in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! So what ever movement that is! So be it! If I was going to put myself in a movement it would be that of Jesus Christ!

Good! I believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit too. But he is not confined to 1Cor.12. In fact he does not work through the sign gifts at all. You have failed to give one example of one person in this entire world where the Holy Spirit is manifesting himself through one of the sign gifts. If they were for today, why can't you give at least one example? That alone proves your theology wrong.

No, you just say that he does not manifest as 1 Cor. 12 says he can!

If he can, why doesn't he. You are as good as lying right here on the board, for you keep saying the same thing without evidence.

So do you manifest the Holy Spirit or the flesh? When something manifest it can be seen or heard in our lives!

Absolutely! and the fruit of the Spirit is that which is manifest in my life. That is how the Holy Spirit works today. But you say he works in a way you cannot demonstrate. That is both hypocrisy and a lie.

When the Holy Spirit manifest Himself through healing it is manifested in a person's life! When He manifest in tongues..it is manifested through our mouth!

Where is the "gift of healing" manifested such as Peter did in Acts 5:16?
Where is the "gift of languages" manifested today, and not praying in gibberish as you do?
Why do even Charismatic missionaries learn languages if they have the "gift of tongues"? They don't have it; they deceive themselves.

In context he states the nine manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

If that is true then your whole theology is a lie, for those gifts cannot be demonstrated today. You live a life of hypocrisy.

Wrong! Our church recognizes all of them! You on the other hand are the one that says tongues is of no use!

Recognize them, but cannot demonstrate them! Who is there demonstrating great signs and wonders--the gift of miracles--that which authenticated the apostles? No one! Just more talk. Talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk. A religion of hypocrisy!

Not all are called to speak in tongues and interpretation! But all can pray in the spirit!

There is no such gift.

1 Corinthians 12:29

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
--Are all apostles? NO.
Are all prophets? NO.
Do all speak with tongues? NO.
The gifts are not for everyone.
And just as the apostles have died, and there are no more prophets today, tongues also have ceased. You can't point to a single person, a missionary for example, who doesn't have to learn the language of the nation he is going to, because God has given him the Biblical gift of tongues/languages. It doesn't exist. We all have to learn those difficult foreign languages. That gift has ceased.

I was not putting him a box...I was keeping it in cotext of 1 Cor. 12!
You have yet to prove that it has died out! If you understood tongues you would know it was not for evangalizing!

You have yet to demonstrate that these gifts are for today. They certainly don't exist in your church. Give some examples. Give names of people, what they did, when, where and who was involved. We would all love to hear how members of your church walked on water, raised the dead to life again, went to foreign nations without having to learn any language, healed thousands without exception even cripples, blind, deaf, and people more seriously sick than that--everyone without exception. Give verified examples of these gifts of the Holy Spirit that are still in operation. Otherwise you are just being hypocritical and lying about what you are saying.

 

[awaken]

Good! I believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit too. But he is not confined to 1Cor.12. In fact he does not work through the sign gifts at all. You have failed to give one example of one person in this entire world where the Holy Spirit is manifesting himself through one of the sign gifts. If they were for today, why can't you give at least one example? That alone proves your theology wrong.

All that proves is that you have to see signs before you believe! I can give several names in my church..but that would not help your unbelief!

If he can, why doesn't he. You are as good as lying right here on the board, for you keep saying the same thing without evidence.

Where is your faith? Why don't you just take Him as His written word?

Absolutely! and the fruit of the Spirit is that which is manifest in my life. That is how the Holy Spirit works today. But you say he works in a way you cannot demonstrate. That is both hypocrisy and a lie.

So you just erase 1 Cor. 12 from your Bible? The fruit is evidence of a born again believer!(indwelling) The nine mentioned in 1 Cor. are evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (upon).

Where is the "gift of healing" manifested such as Peter did in Acts 5:16?
Where is the "gift of languages" manifested today, and not praying in gibberish as you do?
Why do even Charismatic missionaries learn languages if they have the "gift of tongues"? They don't have it; they deceive themselves.

Because tongues is not for missionaries to evangalize! They are speaking to God! PRAYING!

If that is true then your whole theology is a lie, for those gifts cannot be demonstrated today. You live a life of hypocrisy.

Oh! But they can and they do! How much plainer does the text have to be...
"But the mainfestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal for one is given by the Spirit..."....and then he list them!

Recognize them, but cannot demonstrate them! Who is there demonstrating great signs and wonders--the gift of miracles--that which authenticated the apostles? No one! Just more talk. Talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk. A religion of hypocrisy!

Well, you stay in your comfort zone! We enjoy the presense and manifestation of the Holy Spirit..in tongues and interpretation, prophecy, Words of knowledge and wisdom..discernment of spirits, healings..have not seen a miracle as for as limbs growing back! But if the others are manifested...then miracles can be too!

There is no such gift.

Well, you can take that up with Paul one day! Because it is getting boring showing you scriptures and then you ignoring them! Praying in the spirit/ tongues/ speaking to God/ giving thanks IS PRAYING!

You have yet to demonstrate that these gifts are for today. They certainly don't exist in your church. Give some examples. Give names of people, what they did, when, where and who was involved. We would all love to hear how members of your church walked on water, raised the dead to life again, went to foreign nations without having to learn any language, healed thousands without exception even cripples, blind, deaf, and people more seriously sick than that--everyone without exception. Give verified examples of these gifts of the Holy Spirit that are still in operation. Otherwise you are just being hypocritical and lying about what you are saying.

Poor DHK...Your unbelief is showing again!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

If you could grasp what the Bible says about tongues you would understand the purpose was not to evangalize! Tongues is a language just not one learned or understood by the speaker unless we pray for the interpretation!

I know exactly what the Bible says about tongues, as I have shown. Apparently you do not.

The quote I posted shows just what most tongues-talk is: gibberish and vain babblings, not languages.

 

[awaken]

I know exactly what the Bible says about tongues, as I have shown. Apparently you do not.

The quote I posted shows just what most tongues-talk is: gibberish and vain babblings, not languages.

Then show me where tongues is used to evangalize....

 

[DHK]

All that proves is that you have to see signs before you believe! I can give several names in my church..but that would not help your unbelief!

My belief rests on the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ--something that can be verified in history. They are facts. The Christian faith is an intelligent faith rooted and grounded on faith.
That is in contrast to the Muslim who believes that if he straps a bomb on himself, goes and blows himself up, he will then go straight to paradise. What is his basis for that belief? He has none. It is "blind faith." There is no evidence for his faith. Again, my faith is based on evidence; the evidence being the resurrection of Jesus Christ, whom I know was raised from the dead--over 500 witnesses to that event.

Now you say that the gifts of miracles, healings, languages, are all operative in your church. But you can't demonstrate it. It is blind belief just like the Muslim. You have as much credibility in your faith as a Muslim committing suicide and believing he is going to paradise or telling me that you believe monkeys inhabit the planet Pluto. You have no evidence for any of this. You can't perform a miracle, speak in another language, heal large groups of people (the GIFT of healing), etc, or prove that there are monkeys on Pluto. You don't have evidence. It is not a matter of my unbelief. It is a matter of your credibility.

Years ago Charles Taze Russel was taken to court on the charges of fraud. He was asked if he could read Greek, as he claimed. He said he could. He was given a Greek NT. He couldn't read it. And he was charged as guilty. This is the leader of the J.W.'s. He couldn't produce the evidence. You are just like Russell. You have been found guilty in the jury of public opinion. Guilty as charged; no evidence provided.

Where is your faith? Why don't you just take Him as His written word?

I take God at his Word; not your word. Where is your evidence?

So you just erase 1 Cor. 12 from your Bible? The fruit is evidence of a born again believer!(indwelling) The nine mentioned in 1 Cor. are evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (upon).

No it isn't. You have twisted so many scriptures together here, that 2Peter applies to you:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Because tongues is not for missionaries to evangalize! They are speaking to God! PRAYING!

First, I said nothing about evangelizing.
Second, the Bible says nothing about praying in another language, especially privately. There is no such thing.

Oh! But they can and they do! How much plainer does the text have to be...
"But the mainfestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal for one is given by the Spirit..."....and then he list them!

He listed the miraculous sign gifts for the Corinthian Church, not for you.
As proof of that, that is if they were for you, you should be able to demonstrate them. Where are the signs and wonders, the mass healings? They aren't there. Your life is a life of hypocrisy. You say they are there but they aren't. If there were mass healings--broken bones, and all then you would be front page news. But that doesn't happen. These gifts have ceased, and you know it. There are no gift of miracles, gift of healings, gift of languages that go on today. You are deceived.

Well, you stay in your comfort zone!

Comfort zone?? You don't know where I go and what I do. I wouldn't call it a comfort zone if I were you. I don't think you know what true Biblical Christianity is, or at least walking by faith.

We enjoy the presense and manifestation of the Holy Spirit..in tongues and interpretation, prophecy, Words of knowledge and wisdom..discernment of spirits, healings..have not seen a miracle as for as limbs growing back!

You enjoy emotional experiences. You don't see miracles.

Well, you can take that up with Paul one day! Because it is getting boring showing you scriptures and then you ignoring them! Praying in the spirit/ tongues/ speaking to God/ giving thanks IS PRAYING!
Then pray. But praying in gibberish is not praying in tongues/languages. What you pray in not even God can understand. It is just a waste of time.

Poor DHK...Your unbelief is showing again!

Yes, I don't believe monkeys live on Pluto like you do. But, hey, you can believe anything you want to and not have any evidence to back it up. Keep on going that direction and someday you might end up in jail. It is called fraud.

 

[Yeshua1]

Only to be OPEN to what the Lord has for you.

Only to pray with sincerity that the Lord would bestow on you whatever gifts He desires.

But, it is difficult to get the baptism and some of the 9 spiritual power gifts,
if you harbor a lot of UNBELIEF about them.

However, God is not in a box anywhere ... and He does make exceptions!
.

the Bible NEVER commands us to be seeking the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, for that act happened to ALL of us when we got saved, partaking of same Sprit and indwelt by Him!

JUST commanded to be continually refilled by Him only!

And MY bible says the Holy Spirit is sovereign to who gets what gifts, that he decides which to grant us, does your Bible say that?

To seek Jesus, not the Gifts is what my Bible states, does yours?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Then show me where tongues is used to evangalize....

And you claim you get your view of tongues from the NT. Overlooked something, there, didn't you?

Look, I have said repeatedly that I am not a cessationist. But in all my study and experiences with the Charismatics, I know of only two instances where I considered tongues-talk real and used Biblically, two out of hundreds, maybe more, of hearing and seeing this "gift".

So, I am between DHK and you on this, but closer to DHK.

The Charismatic movement is rife with fraud and fraudsters, mentally unstable people, counterfeit signs and gifts, delusional people, people with low self-esteem who want to be seen and heard, spiritual schizophrenics, arrogance, false teachings, false prophets and "profits".